I apologize to everyone for being gone for so long. It’s been a rough winter for us sickness wise as different viruses have been making their way through our house since before Christmas. Between this and just general daily things, it has gotten really busy around here and I have not been online very much.
In the reading that I did do, I came across this comment from Passionate Christian Marriage that is exactly along the lines I have been thinking of equality between men and women.
I’ve thought long and hard (and for many years) about this statement: “I don’t believe in equal rights for men and women …” -and I believe I finally have my head around it! It’s not that men and women are NOT equal – it’s that ‘equality’ shouldn’t come into the comparison. It’s like saying that a maple tree and an apple tree are ‘equal’ to each other. Or a honda and a smartfortwo are equal to each other; or daisy and a rose are equal and need the same things … as each other. Or, (one last example) an apple and a banana are equal to each other.
These examples are all from the same ‘species’ but are very, VERY different from each other. It’s not a matter of being equal; because they are not. In all of these pairs – they each need separate things; they both look different; they both have different designs; they provide different functions.
Men and women are no more equal to each other than a german shepard and a rottweiler are — same species — but different. I don’t believe you can ‘compare’ the two – they must be ‘contrasted.’
I have been thinking for a while now how to explain that men and women are not equal because they are just too different myself. I kept thinking along the lines of comparing a dolphin to a monkey. You just cannot do it. These things cannot be equal as there is nothing to compare. However, when it comes to men and women, we are both human. We are people and it appears that on the surface we want the same things and therefore can be compared equally. But when one digs deeper, we are simply not the same. Our biology is very different, our desires, our drives, our physicality and our very nature’s are extremely different. Yes, there are outliers. There will always be outliers, but instead of seeing them for what they are, we hold them as prime examples of what it means to be man or women and completely ignore the vast majority that proves the overall rule. This applies to each side, men and women.
I immediately think of the successful, 40 something female CEO that is held up for the world to see as a prime example of what women are taught they should strive for. But most of us are simply not interested in that (Hat tip: Captain Capitalism), and when we look beyond the surface of that successful 40 something CEO, we very often find that she is not as happy as she thought she should be, that she cannot find a good man, and is regretting not having her babies now that it’s too late. The idea of this successful woman being equal to the men around her, leads to “I can have it all!”, the other big lie of our time. No one has it all. Men or women. There is no all, but there is most certainly enough. Women and men can do and be enough and they will be happy.
On the flip side, I think of the *nice* husband who is married to the woman of his dreams who is amazingly dedicated and loyal to him. This is what is being held up as the male ideal, what they should be striving for. We all know what this leads to when we dig down just a little bit. The man working his tail off to give his wife what he thinks she wants, what she says she wants, and not understanding that what she needs is a leader. A dominant man who will love her and lead her and be her captain.
None of what makes men men and women women is shameful. We are different and that is what we are meant to be. We each bring our differences to this society and that is what made it wonderful. As we move women to masculinity and men to femininity we find this society more and more confusing, and frankly, in a great decline. We should be striving to accentuate our differences and forget about equality. Where we are equal is the value we both bring to this world. A value that is in sharp decline as we venture further away from our differences in some strange amalgamation of masculine women and feminine men.
Value our differences. Hold them up with pride and don’t be afraid to relish them. We are not equal in comparison as there is nothing to compare. Men lead and women support. Take either one away and the whole of the world suffers for it.
**Update: Robyn, the lady whom I quoted above, has a blog called Up With Marriage. I didn’t realize this when I quoted her and I plan on checking it out today! Thanks for the great quote Robyn.
Well said.. However, I am still for equal rights for men and women (more or less…), when it comes to fundamental things.
Emma,
As far as inalienable rights go, I agree with you.
Beautifully written, I couldn’t agree more.
Thank you for the requote.
Robyn,
Absolutely. I’m glad you said it as I have been pondering it for quite some time. I didn’t realize you had your own blog. I updated this post and linked you. Sorry for not doing it sooner!
I’ve been reconnecting with an old high school friend and when we were talking a few days ago I tried to introduce him a bit to ‘red pill’ ideas. He freaked out like you see blue pill women / feminists do on manosphere sites. I was going to close the topic down entirely but he seemed to want to discuss it, so I started trying to probe the issues gently.
He agreed that child-raising and housekeeping have been devalued and that it is unfortunate, but he was fixated on the idea that even if the women who genuinely want a career over a family are few, they should be able to have that without any more difficulty than a man. Their opportunities to work like a man, be paid like a man, and achieve titles like a man should be utterly equal.
But is this possible? Is it ‘equality’? If most women would rather stay at home and if they could and did, what would the environment be like for those women who decided to pursue careers? I think the environment would be strongly masculine and that the women in question would have to be able to handle that, and I think that’s just fine. My friend thinks if the environment makes the woman who wants a career uncomfortable then it is not ‘equal’, because it will be harder for her than for a man.
How can you convince someone that thinks everyone’s path should be comfortable and easy? They obviously think reality, that it can never be easy and comfortable for everyone, can be changed with enough restructuring. They think reality is only what it is because people have been doing it wrong, so let’s do it right and the reality will be different. How do you argue with that?
In the end he said I’d given him a lot to think about, but I’ve actually been feeling *guilty* about bringing the topic up. He is so deep in feminist indoctrination and pedestalisation of women. I see that if he does swallow the red pill eventually it is going to be immensely painful for him.
I also feel bad because I realise that all those guys in the manosphere blogs that have written about how hard it was for them, I dismissed their pain, because I literally could not fathom someone believing the feminist alter-reality so utterly. Having seen it for myself now, I can see the depth of suffering they must have experienced. I feel bad for their pain, and I feel bad for my dismissal. And I really don’t know if I should pursue this topic with my friend any further.
Thoughts?
@Phedre – stop thinking with your feelings, and start using your head. Like any bad tasting medicine, the red pill’s going to be sour going down while it’s doing it’s healing work. So do the right thing, feed him as much of the red pill as he asks for and/or can handle, and file your “I feel bad” in a “self-centered about me” box.
Is there no moral issue here? I guess what’s throwing me is that normally when you feel compassion for someone’s pain it’s not within your power to stop it, but in this case it is. Yet the pain he will experience through blue pill actions is pretty much guaranteed. So you’re right, it’s just me thinking with my emotions.
Phedre,
I think the key is as Northern Observer says. Give him as much red pill knowledge as he can handle. Start gently. It’s going to be easier for him to hear it from a woman, I think. So much red pill knowledge appears anti-woman because so many women do not fit the mold of what men are looking for. It would seem much more pro-woman if we weren’t all so enveloped in feminism. Your right in that blue pill thinking is going to be much more painful in the long term. Start out with things that might be more obvious, but might not be something he has heard before. Something that he can very clearly see for himself but might not think about in a red pill way. Not knowing his situation, it’s difficult to give examples, but start small and keep going with it as the opportunities present themselves.
One I drop from time to time is that married women are not independent in anyway, nor should they strive to be independent. They’re married. That instantly negates the independence for both the husband and the wife and this is a wonderful thing. There are lots of little places to start that he might be more willing to listen to. I hope it goes well for you and that he asks lots of questions. Be honest and gentle and give him lots of real world examples and it will go better for both of you.
Rhetoric is your friend.
Thanks Stingray.
It is amazing how much harder all of this is in real life, realtime conversation. We spent a good two hours talking about this but most of it was just me trying to make him understand that women weren’t living in oppressed fear for all pre-feminist human history.
I do think you’re right that it’s easier coming from a woman. He was quite resistant at first about creating generalisations about women at all, but I was able to make him a bit more comfortable with it by the end.
He is quite open-minded so I think there’s a good chance that he might manage to choke the red pill down. At the same time he’s really not a ‘masculine’ man, so I worry about his ability to implement anything without it feeling incredibly forced (which he immediately expressed distaste with). Well, other guys have managed it, and anyway that part is really none of my concern.
@Phedre – The only “moral” aspect talking to him about the red pill is whether your need to “feel good” takes priority over his need to know the truth. As medical professionals well know, the patient deserves the know the truth so they can make informed decisions about their treatment and life. The situation you’re in is no different.
As for how you go forward – patience is key here. The red pill will require him to re-interpret the reality of his entire life and everything he was taught was true about people and relationships. Eventually he’ll connect the dots, the lights will come on, and he’ll “get” that he’s been lied to for most of his life – that’s when he’s made the break-through and there’ll be no turning back.
I had to chuckle about your comment about him not being a “masculine” man, because – to me – that sounds like the side-effect of a guy living off the blue pill all his life. If ingesting the red-pill-ism teaches him that “it’s ok to be a man”, you may get to see him transform from what he is now into what he should be.
And you’re right – how he takes to the red pill isn’t your concern – if he chooses to walk away and live with the old blue pill reality, then so be it. If he manages to chew the red pill down, I’ll wager he’ll come out the other end a _much_ better (and happier) person for it.
@ Emma the Emu: I understand what is meant by the claiming of what you call, “fundamental things.” But as a follower of Christ I don’t lower my standards to the equality of “man/men” – My standard to measure against is Christ alone. And therefore, whatever fundamental ‘rights’ He claimed as His own, are the fundamental rights I claim as my own – nothing less and certainly nothing more.
Phedre,
Having these conversations in real life is terribly difficult for me. Emotions tend to run high and there is no time to take a step back and think through things in the middle of the conversation. No time to take a step back, for both parties, and make the hamster turn off to give the best response. Or to make ones emotions stay down to better think. At least, this is what I struggle with. Starting out with the fact that women were not these beaten down creatures is a great place to start.
As far as what he does decide to do with the information you give him, that’s his choice, as you said. Showing him these truths by your example might be the very best way for him to understand these concepts. Then he can look around at other couples to see the counter examples. Your happiness with your fiancé vs a female lead marriage could be extremely eye opening for him.
Stingray and A Northern Observer, thanks for your comments.
I’m really a very unemotional person, so my reaction to the situation (both in the conversation and afterwards) surprised me. It is certainly novel having someone so in need of the knowledge you have and willing to listen to it too. The feeling of responsibility is more acute than in the usual situation where you know the other person is mentally tuning out what you’re saying even as they respond.
I’ll do my best to remain unattached and guide him through it gently and patiently.
@Phedre – another option would be to point him to some red-pill websites where he can read for himself – that’s what I’ve been doing for the last while.
(I wonder – is there a “red-pill for newbies” somewhere?)
All the best on your conversations!
Phedre,
Your friend seems to think it’s unfair to women that they don’t have equal opportunities to work like a man, be paid like a man, and achieve titles like a man, AND have a family.
Perhaps you can use his love for equality, and show him that a man can’t take care of kids and have a demanding career either. A career woman would need to have a stay at home husband to pull this off. But not many women want this. What he’s asking is more opportunities than a man has, not equal.
I think I saw Rollo mention that his book would be ready mid-March. That’s coming up soon! It will certainly be a great resource for giving out to men in such a circumstance as described above. Its much easier to provide someone with a handbook rather than lead them through the entire process. I buy books for my local high school to give to girls who become teen mothers. Its a very valuable resource and guide. Its great to point people in the right direction, but they need to take the reins of their own development, ultimately.
It will be interesting to see what Rollo’s book is like when it comes out. His blog was key in making me ingest the pill fully because his style is completely un-polemical, so you can’t run away from the conclusions. And then you have the comments for illustrating the various stages of unplugging with all their respective challenges.
I think a person needs to be primed a bit before being ready for Rollo though. So far, I’ve directed a couple people over here for an introduction, because Stingray’s writing style is gentle but thorough. It would be nice to have a ‘red-pill for newbies’ post to refer people to though.
“It would be nice to have a ‘red-pill for newbies’ post to refer people to though.”
That’s a good idea. Maybe he will have some kind of introduction in his book. Or maybe you or Stingray could write something like that.
Phedre, keep at it. Your in your early twenties or something right? If I had gotten the truth then it would have radically altered my life for the better. It would have hurt and all that but way less then later. The younger he gets it the better his chances are of not making bad mistakes with his life.
Pelle Billings blog is an MRA blog written without anger and with great diplomacy. To get that side of it that is the best place to send him.
Steven Pinkers the Blank Slate is a superb debunked of the gender is socially constructed myth that does not really go red pill in terms of talking about dominance in relationships etc. If you challenge him to read that book he can take a purple pill that lays the groundwork for more later on.
“Is there no moral issue here? I guess what’s throwing me is that normally when you feel compassion for someone’s pain it’s not within your power to stop it, but in this case it is. Yet the pain he will experience through blue pill actions is pretty much guaranteed. So you’re right, it’s just me thinking with my emotions.”
Big gender difference here. This is exactly why men challenge, push and punish men who don`t get it, whatever don`t get it means at the time, until they get on track. My Thai Boxing trainer for example just pushes and pushes and gives me no reward and no encouragement, only challenge, until I get it right and punch and kick to his standard. His goal is to make me get to where I need to get regardless of pain because that is what is ultimately good for me. It is the same thing with seeing harsh truths for men. We care more about getting at the truth and challenging ourselves and our brothers to see reality because understanding it well is necessary for dealing with it and we always have to deal with it. So we are ruthless with this and care about the objective of getting people on the right track regardless of wether they hurt. We are ruthless because we care. When I see a man way of course in something I want to give him a kick. I feel this energy to push and challenge him and knock him out of whatever bullshit he is doing or believing. It is some sort of feeling that this is important and needs to be done , rather than regular empathy.
Men take this role with our children, something I have seen documented in a study at Leaps site, and we take that role with women. We are much less inclined to do it with women because historically men did most of the work dealing with “reality” outside and the world and politics etc. and because as long as we digested reality properly and lead women through dominance they did not really care so much about how things were as long as we lead them well. Yet also with women this task is important in many things and in our time, where men don`t have direct power over women, it is uniquely important. This is basically what the sphere does and why you and Stingray know what you know.
The problem today is that after feminism men has gradually lost this instinct. We are certainly terrified of doing it with women and we have learnt to use “female” relating styles and principles in dealing with other men. So we have become afraid of hurting our male friends feelings as well and don`t do enough challenging in the way we are supposed to.
This is yet another example of how male hardness is a gift.
“At the same time he’s really not a ‘masculine’ man, so I worry about his ability to implement anything without it feeling incredibly forced (which he immediately expressed distaste with). ”
This text on game is incredibly good for all men but it has the extra advantage of being an easier way to become good with women for a man that is not so masculine:
http://www.authenticmanprogram.com/igtp/InnerGameStickingPoints.pdf
Talking about the poppularity of 50 shades of gray could help. As could mentioning that romance novel heroes tend to be very dominant. The fact that most women desire dominance in bed can be a good gateway to understanding. It was a key stepping stone insight for me. I know many guys find that also to be hard to digest but at least amongst guys I know that are 20-35 most guys can at least digest that they like it in bed.
Thanks Sherlock. Your input has been very helpful.
My initial impulse has actually always been to push and challenge when I know someone is ‘doesn’t get it’, and it’s what I respond to best. But it doesn’t work well on most women and I somehow don’t feel like I ‘have the right’ to do it to men. One of my biggest learning challenges over the years has been figuring out the balance of doing it to my fiance enough to motivate him (in things I know are very important to him to accomplish), but not enough to skew the dominance/submission dynamic. It’s an incredibly fine balance.
Anyway, this guy is a semi-observant Jew, not looking to sleep around, just to find a good girl to marry. All the girls he interacts with are pretty hardcore feminists though, so unless he shifts to a more orthodox circle I think he’s pretty much doomed. Still, he’s 26 so has plenty of time to improve himself and to make a careful choice.
@Sherlock – I downloaded this document, and found a hum-dinger in the first few lines:
“Men‘s disconnection with women, it turns out, is simply a bread crumb trail back to where we‘re disconnected from ourselves.”
Wow.
Oof. A Red Pill for Newbs post. That somehow sounds daunting. I have some ideas that I will look into but it might take some time. There is another post that I have been putting off for too long that I need to work on first.
However, Red Pill Wifey recently put up this post about red pill women that might be a good place to start. There are more and more women who are starting to think this way. It might be a good place for a resistant person to begin.
@Stingray – it could start out with a “know yourself for the sexes”, because that’s what the red pill is all about – being true to our respective genders, and the way they’re supposed to inter-relate, as opposed to the lies feminism has touted all these years.
Pingback: Lightning Round – 2013/02/20 « Free Northerner
I wrote this somewhere else a while back, I should have saved it for my own reference…
Equality is confused with sameness. Two things need not be identical to be equal value, but feminists/progressives/what-have-you are insisting that a dollar bill does not equal 100 pennies, and only two 50 cent pieces can be considered equal.
Nightskyradio,
Exactly and well said. I don’t know if your religious or not, but God values us the same. We each have an important and valuable task for the betterment of our civilization. That does not make us the inherently the same. I like the 100 pennies to one dollar analogy.