A New Way of Looking at Relationship Dynamics Part I

The following was written by Camille 11325 at Red Pill Women.  It’s a new idea that explains a whole lot in women’s different reactions to certain red pill theories.  For the women reading, before you get to the part in the article where it breaks down your combination, figure it out for yourself.  Don’t read the combinations and apply it to yourself that way.  Know what it is before hand.  If you go in just reading the descriptions, it is far too easy to think one is “good” and one is “bad” and assign yourself the good one to save your ego and to be part of the good group.  This is like the alpha and beta in men.  One is not good and one is not bad.  These things just are.  If you can’t be honest with yourself about where you are beginning, you will not be able to accurately see where you need to go.

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There are a lot of misconceptions surrounding dominance, submission, and RPW. Many unacquainted with our subreddit assume that all RPW are 1950’s housewife wannabes, or that we are interested in the plate-spinning, alpha archetype that TRP endorses. Others write us off as a group of women in denial about our sexual kinks, and completely ignore the evidence to the contrary. Even within the sub, there is confusion when it comes to explaining the RPW relationship model, and what type of man is ideal. 

After several enlightening conversations with /u/_wingnut_ I have created a system to describe various relationship models and dynamics from an RPW perspective. A streamlined set of terms to discuss this subject is a necessary step, and hopefully this post will lead to further exploration of similar topics within RPW. 


A basic understanding of RP concepts and vocabulary is a prerequisite for this post, so please consult the FAQ, Wiki, and/or top posts if necessary. Please note that this entire post is limited to describing the personalities of average and attractive men (5+ on the SMV scale), and of course, these ideas are generalisations that can be applied to most people, not ironclad universal laws. There will also be a follow up post that explores these ideas more, this is merely an introduction. Please be honest when assessing yourself based on the criteria outlined below, there are many different RPW dynamics, and they all have the potential to be equally harmonious.


Our disposition, mindset, and personality, all have a profound effect on the types of relationships we thrive in. A couple doesn’t need to be identical to have a strong marriage, but they certainly must have the right balance of traits to make them compatible. There are two important characteristics that must be taken into account: the dominance level of each person, as well as the woman’s dominance threshold. 

Your “Dominance Level” (DL) measures your natural tendency to assume the lead, exercise authority in interactions, and display other alpha male traits. For the purposes of this post I will use a scale of 1 – 10 to discuss DL, with 10 representing the maximum possible level of dominance one can have. A “1” on the scale represents pure beta, not omega characteristics, as we are only discussing attractive men here. The “Dominance Threshold”indicates how dominant your man has to be in order for you to feel attraction, commitment, and love. I will also be using the 1-10 dominance scale when referring to the dominance threshold. For the purposes of this discussion it is assumed that all women have a range of 0-2 points past their threshold where attraction is possible, and I think this is in line with reality. The threshold is the minimum but most women who prefer a 5.5/10 would not be comfortable with an 8 or higher. 

How are dominance levels expressed in each gender?

  • Men who are lower in dominance (1-5.4 on the DL scale) have a higher ratio of beta traits in comparison to alpha traits. At the lowest end of the spectrum they can be easygoing, empathetic, gentle, and considerate. They can also be sensitive, emotional, unconfident, indecisive, and soft. The 3.5s-5.4s exhibit more alpha traits but their nature is that of a “greater beta”. These men are able to provide comfort and leadership as required in a relationship. 
  • High dominance men (5.5-10 on the DL scale) have a higher ratio of alpha traits in comparison to beta traits. There are many types of alpha men: apex, renegade, patriarchal, criminal, corporate, political, etc. and they all have different characteristics that allow them to succeed and take charge in their respective environments. One thing they all have in common is an immense amount of masculinity, which can be both good and bad. The 5.5 – 7.9s are “lesser alphas”, similar to greater betas, only they provide less comfort and their personalities are less feminine. 8 – 10s have the highest amounts of Dark Triad traits, and are the rarest group of men. 
  • Women who are low dominance are non confrontational, empathetic, sensitive, and accommodating. In essence, they are feminine, not only with their men but in their everyday lives, automatically. They can be doormats, passive, weak, and insecure if they do not learn how to prioritise themselves first instead of others.
  • High Dominance Women are more confident, driven, assertive, and ambitious but this is a result of being more masculinised. This also makes them more argumentative, self serving, and insubordinate. Some women like to think of themselves as “alpha women” but this is a myth, not an RP concept. Feminists have pushed the idea that male characteristics and virtues are a universal ideal that all should strive for so women are encouraged to be high dominance. Many who come to RPW find that with the right man they actually prefer not having all of the control. To be clear, a woman with a DL of “10” is not as dominant as a man who ranks at “10”. There are two separate scales. 

How are dominance thresholds expressed in women?

  • Women with low dominance thresholds require less alpha, more beta in their relationships. This means more affection and softness, more obvious and frequent displays of love and care. These women are repelled by or afraid of extreme displays of male aggression, anger, or arrogance. They are suited for betas and greater betas. 
  • Women with high dominance thresholds require more alpha, less beta. They crave arousal, displays of power, raw masculinity, etc. from their man and cannot tolerate emotional sensitivity, pedestalization, uncertainty, weakness, or other beta traits in excess. They’re perfect mates for all types of alphas. 
  • When a man’s DL is way too low for a woman, she reacts with disgust or infantilisation. If it is merely a point or two lower you’ll see shit tests. If it’s slightly too high, she’ll comfort test, and when it’s way too high she’ll be afraid. This applies to all women regardless of their threshold. 


Taking the 4 categories into account (low/high DL, low/high threshold) there are 8 possible relationship combinations. Not all are optimal or RP but all of the dynamics exist in the real world. My hope is that we can use these labels within the subreddit in our discussions and the advice we give. In the IRC we came up with an easy way to refer to each dynamic with just 3 letters, all of which are either H or L. The first letter establishes the man’s dominance level, the second the woman’s, and then the third is for her dominance threshold. So a high dominance man with a low dominance woman, who has a high threshold, would be described as HLH. A low dominance man with a low dominance woman, who has a low dominance threshold, would be LLL. 

Now onto an overview of the dynamics, which will be described from the female point of view. They are ordered from least potential to be RP to most potential to be RP, with 3 equally RP dynamics, there is not one universally ideal dynamic. Please keep in mind that these descriptions are all generalisations of what is most likely to happen, there are always exceptions. 

  • High dominance man, high dominance/low threshold woman (HHL) – she vies for dominance and feels little to no comfort or security. Possible violence as she is likely to stir up trouble by constantly challenging her man.
  • High man, low/low woman (HLL) – she needs more beta comfort and can’t stay motivated when feeling unloved. Her man doesn’t know how to interact w/ her, and may find her useless or overly sensitive. She feels he is mean or scary. There is also a strong chance of violence in this relationship which only further discourages the LL woman from being her best and creates a cycle where the man is constantly punishing her.
  • Low man, high/high woman (LHH) – she walks all over him or bosses around. This is a very common dynamic as it is what usually happens when a woman is out of the CC riding/AF phase and has settled for her beta bucks. 
  • Low man, low/high woman (LLH) – she is repulsed and/or can’t respect him, wishes he was more dominant. This is one of the most common dynamics when women come to rpw for advice. Whenever you see a post where the OP asks: “How can I get my main to be the captain” or says “I tried captain/first mate but he’s not taking the lead” then you know it’s an LLH situation. 
  • Low man, high/low woman (LHL) – a lot of feminist and “equal” relationships are like this, and they can work, and people can be happy in them. But there is a greater chance that the woman walks all over the man and disrespects him and he just puts up with it. 
  • High man, high/high woman (HHH) – potential to be RP if the woman respects the man. Women in these relationships may be masculinised/male brained by nature but they are able to achieve psychological femininity within their relationships and defer to their men. “Captain and First Mate” as described by RPW is not an adequate description of the dynamics in HHH relationships. /u/_wingnut_ (who is in an HHH relationship herself) prefers to think of this pairing as “Zod and Ursa”, or “Magneto and Mystique”.
  • High man, low/high woman (HLH) – potential to be RPW and is a classic fantasy, but not seen as much in reality. The woman is naturally submissive and aware of it. She is drawn to a dominant man and requires power over her. There is a strong sense of ownership and there can also be a paternalistic element to the dynamic. A lot of women who would thrive in HLH relationships get mistaken for and/or wrapped up in bdsm communities. Again, “Captain and First Mate” does not fit, I personally use “supervillain/hot sidekick” to describe my HLH dynamic w/ M, but the best analogy for your relationship is dependent on the type of alpha your man is. 
  • Low man, low/low woman (LLL) – this is the most common both in and out of the subreddit. Contrary to what many may assume, most rpw are interested in or already with greater betas! When done right, these relationships are the epitome of the captain and first mate concept. The man leads and the woman occupies the traditional female role, but it may not feel like submission or deferment to her because of the lack of power imposed explicitly. 


Can you change your dominance level?

Yes! If you are a high dominance woman, you can become less controlling, argumentative, disobedient, etc. RPW is great for that. “Cultivating a Feminine Frame of Mind” (located on the sidebar) is a good place to start and it is applicable to all as it deals with psychological femininity. The Surrendered Wife may also apply depending on the preferences of your man. If you are low dominance, you can become more assertive if that is an area of weakness. However, men who want the traditional, RP relationships are not interested in women who do not listen to or respect them, so it’s important not to go too far in the other direction.

Can you change your dominance threshold?

Attraction is non negotiable. It’s important to be aware of and honest about your preferences and select a partner wisely. If you are in a marriage, RPW can help you with your behaviour and thought processes but it’s not likely that your actual nature as a person will change. Understanding how men think can help you become more comfortable with a man that has a DL way higher than your threshold. If you are with a man who’s DL is below your threshold RPW can help you with respect, loyalty, and all of the other issues that come with those dynamics. 

What can we do with this information?

Part 2 will explore these ideas more, especially the RP dynamics, and it will go into how to identify which dynamic you have if you aren’t sure. As mentioned earlier, this system will be a great way to have everyone on the same page when it comes to discussing relationships and giving advice.

We should all be aware of our biases, and our individual dominance levels and thresholds greatly affect the responses we leave about other people’s relationships. A lot of women with low dominance thresholds can’t understand masculine, dominant men, and that contributes to them advising women to leave their men in certain instances or worrying that something is abusive. The reverse also applies, women with high dominance thresholds are less able to wrap their heads around how other women can stay with and be attracted to low dominance men. It is important to be aware of our biases and work to overcome solipsism. It’s not about what we would do in their situation, but what they should do in their situation. Hopefully having the language to identify dynamics will help us all provide suggestions that work well with whatever dynamic a user is involved in. 



Thank you for reading, I hope this all made sense and was helpful! Let me know what questions you have and what things you want to see in Part 2 :)

This is a unique idea and one I really wanted to share.  One note I wanted to make is I think many women’s dominance threshold’s are out of whack with what they would naturally tend towards.  We have been taught (many from birth) that masculinity is dangerous and bad and some women, who would have a high threshold would find masculine men attractive and then not understand why she does.  This would cause  confusion, among other things, to say the least.  Not to mention those who are low dominance threshold controlling so much of the narrative today.  They use their position to weaken masculinity and to shame women with high thresholds .

I have a lot of thoughts on this, but really I wanted to put it out there.  This wouldn’t be so much of a manosphere theory as it applies to women, but it might help men to better understand the women they are with.

For women, I think it can be invaluable.  If you can accurately assess yourself here and get your natural baseline it could open up your eyes to problems within your marriage and make it far easier to find and understand solutions.

Men should “Just Shut the Hell Up”

Here is a video, that is supposed to be funny, from the other side.  The idea is the same, rally people through humor.  Add to that, they try to use humor to deny what they are trying to push, “You are being so sensitive!  It was just a joke!”  Again, this all reminds me of Rollo’s Peak Hypergamy, only it goes so far beyond that now.  They will hide behind the humor for now, but not for much longer.  There are those who already say outright, with no humor to hide behind, what this woman is saying.

(H/T PJMedia)

Modern Educayshun

 

I would like to point something out.  It was said in the comments of the last video that the video is, Interesting, but it will not make me think a lot.

My response.  These videos are not meant to make you think a lot. Through humor, people will drop their egos enough to see the humor (because they want to laugh) and more truths are seen. They might not sink in deeply, but it plants a seed. They are also designed to show people that they are not alone. More and more people are noticing these trends. The videos backs up beliefs that people have been afraid to voice and shows them they are not alone. People who are not alone are braver and more likely to speak out as well. All of this helps to further spread the message.

Things like this are more important than people realize and have been used for hundreds of years, just like the political cartoons of old.

Pedestalization – What women want

 

And yet, inexplicably, she wants him.

I’ve had occasion to think more on this tonight because of this comment at Rollo’s from Anonymous Reader:

Women don’t want to be put on a pedestal, not really, not inside. Unless maybe it’s to give a man they like a chance to peek up their skirt. They want to be possessed by a man they are attracted to, not idolized by any man.

I would like to clarify something about this. To be perfectly clear women want to be pedestalized and not pedestalized. Clear as mud, right? Here’s the thing. With so much that is woman, we often want two conflicting things. In this case we want to be pedestalized from a place of Pride. We want to be admired, to have the power over and even own a man who would put us there. Only, there is no contentment in his place. There is no peace. Only pride and resentment.

There is another place, a deeper place of freedom and peace and it is in this place where we truly do not want to be pedestalized. We cannot respect a man who would put us above himself and we cannot truly love a man we do not respect. We will take the pedestalization as it is power but we would rather be with a man who is more powerful than ourselves.

What we really want is a man who has built his own pedestal. The higher the better and we want him to lift us up onto it by his own choice. This is the deeper want, the deeper desire. To be chosen.

Dignity . . . Long Dismissed

For no other reason than I love this picture.

It seems 4chan has once again very successfully trolled feminists.  This latest troll job has gotten women to take pictures urinating on themselves and then post them for all the world to see.  This is supposed to be in some sort of solidarity with women who soil themselves while raped (which is also a 4chan meme). Since we can no longer tell the difference between actual rape and what these women want us to think rape is, how is this supposed to help?

This is more evidence of the SJW/Feminist thought.  Ugly is beautiful.  Beautiful is Ugly.  Dignity is shameful and shame is pride.  On and on it continues.

Hilariously, 4Chan also began the free bleeding movement (also shown in the linked article).  It seems my hope of feminist taking it so far as to continue to show their ridiculous hand continues and they more successfully turn more women away themselves than anything any anti-feminist could write.

(H/T commenter Is This Thing On? at Rational Male)

Your Children Do Not Come First

There is a story I’ve been meaning to put down here for quite some time.  Rollo’s post today on the Red Pill Parent reminded me of it this morning (It’s a very good post.  Take the time to read it).

My husband told me this story years ago and it has always stuck with me.

When a man and a women marry, they begin the marriage by joining hands.  In many marriages today, when a child comes along, the husband and wife will break their circle by letting the child join in it.  Then another child comes and joins in the circle as well and so on and so forth.

As the children grow and leave the home, they leave the circle broken. It is not so easy for the husband and wife to simply join hands again.  It was a mistake for them to ever let go.  Instead, the man and wife never let go of one another.  Rather, when children come, they are put inside the circle the man and wife have created together.  A circle that is never broken.

Your husband and marriage come first.  Not only will your marriage be better off for it, contrary to popular belief, your children will be, as well.

Healthy Masculinity!

By now you’ve probably heard that the University of Tennessee is asking their students to use “gender neutral pronouns such as ‘ze'”. . . in order to create a more inclusive campus.”  There were a bunch of other recommendations as well that I don’t have the stomach to look up right now such as “xe”, “xir” and other ridiculousness (while googling an article for this post, the UT webpage has been removed and it looks like they have let this go).

Vanderbilt University is now joining the fun.  Only this one won’t be so easily mocked because it is far more mainstream (H/T – Alpha Game).

Vanderbilt University’s Women’s Center will be hosting a week-long event dedicated to lecturing men about what it means to have “healthy masculinity.”

The “Healthy Masculinities Week” is sponsored by Vanderbilt’s Margaret Cuninggim Women’s Center, which claims to be devoted to “Celebrating Women” while “Empowering All.”

The mission of the Women’s Center is to affirm a “space for all members of the Vanderbilt community that acknowledges and actively resists sexism, racism, homophobia, and all forms of oppression while advocating for positive social change.”

The “core values” of the Women’s Center includes the idea that, “progress toward gender equality calls all of us to be champions for change” while simultaneously claiming to “celebrate the unique differences among all persons and work to build community in diversity.”

“Healthy Masculinities Week” hopes to encourage men to “[e]xplore healthy masculinity through various lenses,” such as “American society, the gay and bisexual community, fraternities, and more.”

Allow me to translate – We desire to control the men because we are afraid of you.  We’re not really all that afraid you’re going to hurt us, but we know that if you start to think for yourselves, you will supplant us.  So, we will define masculinity for you.  What we propose won’t actually arose us or even attract us, but it will leave you waiting for us when, at around 30-35, we are ready to marry “A good man”.  So, because we know you want to sleep with us, we will tell you what we want you to be when we actually want you to impregnate us and provide for us.  You will listen because sex.  

That’s basically it in a nutshell.  To be sure, many of these women don’t consciously think what I’ve written out above.  It’s there, but they won’t allow themselves to think about it too much because it is still somewhat shameful to say aloud.  However, to be perfectly clear, due to peak hypergamy more and more feminists are willing to think in a far clearer manner about this and to put voice to it.  It’ll only continue to be more vocalized as it becomes more acceptable to admit it.

Women have been attempting to define masculinity, likely since the beginning.  In the last few decades we have succeeded.  Men and women are suffering because of it.  Women aren’t going to stop trying to tell you men what we think we want.  Hopefully it is obvious by now that we are terrible at this and you men must define it for yourselves and not fear doing so.  As a group, we will use this fear (and desire for sex) against you in one manner or another, consciously or not.

By the way, one of the sponsors of the event is the Office of LGBTQI Life. I wondered when the number pf letters would get longer.  It was only a matter of time.

And if anyone is thinking of Black Knighting anything like this in the future, will this Open Code of Conduct has you covered (H/T Vox Popoli).

Our open source community prioritizes marginalized people’s safety over privileged people’s comfort. We will not act on complaints regarding:

~‘Reverse’ -isms, including ‘reverse racism,’ ‘reverse sexism,’ and ‘cisphobia’

~Reasonable communication of boundaries, such as “leave me alone,” “go away,” or “I’m not discussing this with you”

~Refusal to explain or debate social justice concepts

~Communicating in a ‘tone’ you don’t find congenial

~Criticizing racist, sexist, cissexist, or otherwise oppressive behavior or assumptions

Thank goodness creativity is on our side because the SJW’s aren’t even bothering to try to hide their thought policing any more.

It’s in His Nature to be Masculine

I want to share a field report with you from RPW today.

I happened upon the red pill life back in January of this year. I was looking for ways to improve my new marriage by getting back to traditional values and was trying to research ways when a link popped up concerning red pill. Eventually I found my way here and became obsessed. My old ways were mostly easy to give up – or so I thought. I adopted the red pill woman mentality relatively easily. When I read The Surrendered Wife and tried to implement Laura’s ideas, I hit some road blocks. 

I would literally have to trust my husband with everything; our livelihood, multiple decisions about family and money, stuff I knew based on our two year relationship, he couldn’t do. He forgets literally everything I tell him, even if it’s multiple times. One weekend I had to work and the kids wore the same underwear two days in a row! I fell apart, came here to try and get my questions answered on how to fix my husband and make him an alpha – and had my ass torn apart and handed back to me. I almost gave up the whole red pill idea right then. But one poster in particular (I’ll always remember her!) said something that clicked and it as something to the effect of I was only fooling myself into thinking I had surrendered but by the way I told my story it was obvious to red pill women I had not. 

So I tried again. Things honestly couldn’t get worse for my husband and I unless he was to lose his job. We rent a place from his parents, drive cars that are over 10 years old and are financially quite poor and over burdened. So I thought, “what the hell? Things truly can’t get much worse” and I just let my husband have it all. Do you know what? I have never been more happy to be so completely wrong about something in my whole life!!!!!!

What a burden has been lifted off my shoulders to not handle the finances anymore! He’s stepped up, created a budget, he gives me a budget I can stick to and as long as I’m under it I know we have money. He goes after sales bonuses like a lion after prey because he now sees the money in our account directly – I haven’t looked at our bank account in months! Just recently my husband needed to replace his car and we had money saved because he had begun a car fund. He was talking up a real storm about a car I was worried would cost too much in upkeep and insurance and isn’t practical for our family – do you know he gave up on that car himself?! He asked me my opinion on the car and I was DYING to give it to him but instead I did as Mrs. Doyle instructed and replied “whatever you think.” He instead changed his mind and bought a 4 door sedan and actually came in under budget! And our insurance dropped $25 a month! The change has been incredible! 

The best part is that my husband noticed my changes and thanked me the other day. “I’ve never felt more in charge of my own life or family and I’ve never felt more like a man in any relationship.” That’s what he said to me. I’ll always be red pill and always be a surrendered wife. It truly does work.

One of the first things that is very noticeable about new women coming in and wanting to change their marriages is how they want to benefits of submitting, but don’t actually want to submit.  The idea of real submission is so terrifying that it is literally inconceivable.  They dress prettily, the cook, they clean, but when it comes to really letting go, to truly submitting to their man, they can’t do it and they can’t even admit they can’t do it.  What they want is to top from the bottom.  They need to maintain true control for fear of relinquishing.

I don’t say this to pick on these women (To a different degree I was there at one point, as well).  It’s all they know.  It’s all they’ve been taught, in most cases, and the fear is real.  But when they surrender and truly let go of their fear (or at least not let it rule them), blossoming occurs.  In the women. In the men, but most importantly, in the marriage.

The second thing I always notice in these progress field reports is that, when men are given the space to be masculine, they will be masculine.  It has been taught out of them, but it is a natural part of who they are.  Get out of the way and watch them be men.

 

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