Rollo and Dalrock have had posts recently regarding the feminine imperative and some of the repercussions of this. In a nutshell, the feminine imperative is the idea that most everything female is good and held up in society while those things male are not (to take it further, all things male are often derided and frowned upon). Woman have come by this imperative by seeking masculine power for themselves and then adding into the narrative how people used to feel about women. People seem to be slowly realizing that woman cannot have both. They cannot work to achieve all things masculine while maintaining their feminine privileges.
Women began seeking this masculine power, in part, because of what I spoke about in my last post. Women felt they had no power of their own so they began seeking that which men enjoy in being masculine. Only, women do have power in the feminine; great power, but not nearly as overt in its nature as the masculine. Due to its subtlety many woman struggle to find it and many more fail to realize that it’s even there. A woman’s power is largely covert. The most obvious aspect of our influence is in our beauty. Men are almost viscerally drawn to female beauty, but it is fleeting and must be utilized at a young age. However, our femininity, our covert power, goes far beyond our beauty. Our true ability to influence and inspire comes from relinquishing control, in our submissiveness and our vulnerability.
Commenter Wudang had this to say:
I am far more sensitive towards the needs of a highly feminine woman and more willing to do things for her because I experience there to be a vacuum of sorts and so since she appears not to be so able to push back hard I feel compelled strongly to protect, be sensitive, lead and take care of her. If a feminine woman wants me to do something asking in a feminine and submissive way makes me WANT to do what she asks.
Femininity gives us the means to inspire a man to want to do things for us. But even more than that, and more importantly, femininity will inspire a man to be more masculine. It inspires a man to take his family even further under his wing and protect and nurture them in a way that a masculine woman never could. After all, if there is already an abundance of masculinity, why need there be more?
It may seem counterintuitive to some, but submissiveness will inspire strength, fortitude and steadfastness in many men. It will inspire a man to be the Rock to the woman’s bending will. She will become more a part of him and something he will fiercely protect and respect. The more she is willing to submit (not in a subversive way) to him and support him in his life, the more she will find that he will work for her and, more importantly, for them and their family to further their lives together.
Masculinity and femininity are meant to compliment one another. A man is meant to be a Rock for his family and I akin a woman to being more of a reed in the wind. She will bend and sway as she must, but she will never break. There is true strength there as there must be to support her man. When a couple does compliment each other in this way, people will find that they are some of the strongest and happiest marriages you see. You will also likely find, that what they are able to accomplish together is almost palpable to those around them.
Note: I had a difficult time fleshing out this post as there was so much I wanted to say but had a surprisingly difficult time putting words to. I would love to flesh this out more in the comments so I ask you to add your thoughts and ideas there. I think this is something very important that women need to understand and the more it is fleshed out, the better.
Damn, you really smacked it out of the park with this one. i might have to link this, although, i suspect you don’t really need me promoting you. i’m sure you have a pretty large audience.
great post Miss.
We must be thinking parallel to one another. I just posted the second part of a few posts about femininity and alot of what you mentioned is what I am writing about. I know exactly what you mean about finding the words to write, thus the reason I needed to write it in three posts, but I suspect I may need to wrap it up in four.
Great post, Stingray. I am always uplifted to read what you write. Thanks.
I like your analogy of the woman being like a reed in the wind but never breaking.
… Great post …
Thanks Danny. I’d be honored.
Thank you, Jacquie.
For those interested, here is Jacquie’s latest post. It is very good.
“The more she is willing to submit (not in a subversive way) to him and support him in his life, the more she will find that he will work for her and, more importantly, for them and their family to further their lives together.”
We’re more gifted in the ‘supportive&submissive’ department – I won’t argue with that. We’re taught early on, at least I was, how to run a great house and I have seen very few men being as gracious a host as a woman.
However, my point would be – there’s a limit to being that. There’s a point where your aspirations, goals and relationships outside of your main one count towards being independent and adult. The worst possible thing for a relationship is to find oneself attached to a needy, weak-willed, goal-less and childish spouse unable to feign for herself. Even if obedient and helpful. Clingy is not an alfa-trait.
This is where supportive and submissive are most misunderstood. Needy, weak-willed, goal-less, childish and clingy are not traits of a supportive, submissive woman at all; they are however the traits of a self-centered, narcissistic woman. A truly supportive and submissive woman would not burden her husband with such behaviors, but instead be respectful, responsible and fun to be with. When she is respectful of him and his purpose, responsible for herself and her actions then he will find it a joy to be with her. Those are alpha traits for a woman.
Very good post. I might add that if a woman asks/tells me to do something in an alpha masculine way I might feel compelled to do what she says by the force and push of the masculine strength in it by I will not feel inspired to do it I won`t be as internally motivated to do it, it won`t be pleasurable in the same way, it won`t feel important in the same way. If she really puts the pressure on me to do something and she succeeds I`ll feel some frustration and want to get out of it. In a sense I`ll only be doing it because of an implicit threat of the use of direct social power.
If you change the genders and a man asks/tells a woman to do something in a masculine dominant way she will naturally feel compelled to do it in a way that feels pleasurable for her. It will give her internal motivation and a stronger motivation than by asking/telling in any other way.
Change the dynamic to a man asking telling in a feminine way and she might do it but she will do it, very reluctantly feeling something is wrong and quite possibly feel contempt for him.
There is reason for women to develop a masculine style of getting their way as a secondary strategy in life because it is useful outside the home in many instances. But as a general rule it should only by what you revert back to if femininity does not succeed. A woman can also never get as much through a masculine strategy as a woman can. Many women struggle to develop a powerful direct style that does not come across as slightly hostile or slightly aggressive. Because they are naturally meeker they have to add in so much extra effort to get something which seems like enough power in their voice and body language that they over do it and flip over into slight aggression. This is not the case for everyone. My masculine alpha female sister does have very strong natural masculine authority which is not hostile and does compel people to follow her without frustration. But on average women will have to tense up and stress themselves and over exert themselves to get that much dominance going that it will flip over into slight aggression/hostility.
There is also the problem that the rewards won`t be there int eh same way as for a man. Alpha females just don`t get rewarded in the same ways alpha males does, in fact they get punished. So as a life strategy it is idiocy. Certainly the rewards dominant females get are not the rewards women usually want. Also the act itself is rarely truly satisfying for a woman.
A woman using her femininity to her advantage will feel instant satisfaction as she is using it. A woman using a masculine style won`t and will instead wonder why she is never really satisfied. If she things women following male strategies is the way to satisfaction in life she will then try harder and harder in that direction but just become more frustrated because it is not working. Then she will blame everyone else because she is doing everything right so it must be someone else’s fault, the fault of men of course.
And so you have the perpetually dissatisfied masculine western woman alway demanding more and more and more because since she isen`t satisfied doing everything right someone else, men, must of course be at fault and things need to be changed to accommodate her even more, and more, and more etc. The parallel to a woman who takes on the masculine role in a relationship, betaizes the man, becomes dissatisfied and demands more and more and projects her dissatisfaction on him is strong.
So, be wise in your use of the masculine style. Do be willing to use it strategically. Do develop it as a secondary strategy, but leave it at that.
There is a general use for women to develop a multitude of masculine abilities so she can use them when she is single and when she is in relationships but doing a task that requires a masculine style. Rationality, direct assertiveness, goal orientedness, integrity, keeping your emotions in line, direct and blunt speak and many other masculine qualities can certainly be useful to develop in a good way to use every now and then when useful, sort of like a swiss army knife of masculine skills. But when with a man the beneficial thing is to sort of outsource the need for all that to him and rest on his masculinity for that. He in turn will do the opposite. Coming together allows us the be more fully in our sexual essence which will always be more satisfying.
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can i just say, that dear God….let me find a woman like you ladies speaking on this here. seriously. you gals OWN.
and Stingray is right. i will bleed for a woman that offers me that level of commitment. her submission makes me work until my bones ache. every woman in my family KNOWS, i will fight to the death to protect them. no questions asked. be it niece, aunt or cousin.
and those women, will gladly tend to my wounds and support me in any endeavor i take on. and yes…..i’m WELL AWARE of hoe lucky i am. my family is the greatest blessing i’ve been given. and i know it.
you have been linked Buttercup.
@Wudang: Right on. When using feminine, and natural, methods of communication don’t work, resorting to masculine ones is extremely unsatisfying. Basically, it conveys that you failed at being a woman.
“But when with a man the beneficial thing is to sort of outsource the need for all that to him and rest on his masculinity for that.” Right on. I am dealing with two situations right now where my feminine approach is being somewhat taken advantage of. Instead of these guys being inspired to complete the tasks I hired them for, the projects are on the backburner. Sucks. Somehow men can just sense when you don’t have some man, whether it be a father or an S.O. and its a real litmus test of their integrity as to how they will then treat you.
Could you provide an example of a feminine way of someone asking you to do something? I may be doing it wrong:) LOL
Rollo has a new post about his 16 yrs of marriage and it follows this to a tee. His wife started it off by creating the void and allowed Rollo to fill it. She demanded it from the get and allowed him to be the man by playing the woman. Yohami has also said this numerous times in his own particular style.
Women should not be playing the role of a man. Masculinity in a female doesn’t entice me to want to go out of my way to do things for her. I’d rather masterbate with a cheese grater than deal with a woman who wants to compete with me, behave like ‘one of the boys’ and be standoffish and confrontational at every chance just because she’s trying to prove something.
Masculine females aren’t out to impress upon men, rather trying to prove something to women. And that’s why they’re never happy. And that’s why feminists can’t understand why so many European women are happy being ‘feminine’ and being the female complement to their male counterparts. Feminists will bitch and bemoan how those women are blinded by patriarchal oppression or stupid self hating women. Yet the Euro woman is more often than not leaps and bounds happier than her ‘can have it all’ counterpart in North America.
3 guess’s why, but you only need one.
GeishaKate
“Could you provide an example of a feminine way of someone asking you to do something? I may be doing it wrong:) LOL”
Correct
“Honey.. could you please move that big ol’ heavy trash can out to the curb for lil ol’ me.. i can’t do it on my own. Shouldn’t be a problem for those big powerful arms of yours ;) ”
Incorrect
“For the 5th f*cking time would you get off your ass and take the trash out before we miss the pickup!”
Play up to his inner caveman. Don’t tear him down. Here endeth the lesson.
LOL Thanks, M3:)
Fantastic. I wish we could shout this from the mountaintops. Feminism hijacked the term submissive and turned into something awful. There is no power in being weak-willed and needy. Rather these are traits that drain all of those around you.
Stingray,
I just found your blog via Danny’s.
I am so glad to have stumbled upon it!
It ‘s so nice to widen our little community of women who want to BE women…
Can I also say, your ‘synergy’ with Jacquie reminds me of mine with Bellita!
Hahahaha!
PS: I shall pop over to say hi to Jacquie too.
I am going to blogroll you both.
Wudang,
Yep, many women who try to go the masculine dominant route end up being very domineering instead. It’s a difficult and fine line for a woman to tread, but as you say most useful when the feminine strategy is utilized first.
While I agree that these are masculine traits, rationality, being goal oriented, and keeping one’s emotions in line don’t have to be solely male traits. I have known women to have them as well. However, every woman I have known to have these traits has learned them because the man in her life has these same qualities. In her submissiveness, she has learned to incorporate some of the best male traits into herself. That’s not to say that single women might not have these traits as they may learn them from her father. I don’t know why, but I think it is a very difficult thing for a mother to pass these same traits down to her daughter, but a father can do it very well.
Kate,
While M3’s example is spot on, especially when one is having fun being playful, my best feminine approach towards Maritus and other men around me is simply “Will you please . . .?” Though, as you said, men at work might not follow this.
M3,
I’m glad to see you here.
I agree. And it is a very difficult thing to comprehend that letting go can makes one incredibly happy. Only, many of the most ardent feminist actually believe that woman like myself and Jacquie have a mental disorder.
Spacetraveller,
I’m glad you stopped by!
Thanks, Stingray:) I once read that one should always use “would” instead of “could” when speaking to men. Glad to have that corroborated. The men at work are peaches. Its the men working *for* me that give me a hard time! Worked it out with one today and with the other? Maybe the landscaping will be done by the end of the summer ;)
You and Jacquie have a mental disorder? LOL A mind at ease is now a disease.
Kate,
I like being mentally ill. ;)
Regarding “would” vs “could”, saying “will” implies simply “Will you help me out?” while saying “Can you . . . ” implies more of an “are you able to” scenario. A man might think, “Of course I can, but do I really want to?”
Well, your illness is only slight ;) Some movies about this topic are coming to mind: Mona Lisa Smile and An Education.
“A man might think, “Of course I can, but do I really want to?”
Exactly what John Gray said! For being mentally ill, you’re pretty smart!
IMO there is only one aspect women need to consider when a women wants something – anything – from a man; respect. We are wired for it. I think the average man’s respect radar is the equivilent of the average women’s herd radar.
The average man wants to be respected as much as the average women wants to belong.
That’s why asking a man if he ‘could’ help rather than asking him if he ‘will’ help (or – much worse – demanding that he help) is far more effective.
‘Could’ implies that the man has a choice, that the women is not expecting anything of him, and that the man has no obligation to help. The women is signalling that she is respecting his decision to choose to help her – and even better that she is likely to show him respect if he decides to help her. That promise of respect is like crack to most men.
Demanding help offers no such rewards to a man. The task is an expectation, that somehow he has an obligation to perform without complaint or benefit.
But here’s the thing. Men’s respect radars are finely tuned. If a women’s respect is not sincere it will be detected. Not all the time, but mostly. Before you ask a man for help you need to get your head in the right place. Make sure you feel respect for the guy before you ask – you’ll be most effective if you do. And the best way to do that? Get into that submissive frame that Stringray describes.
You know, that submissive frame that feminists tell you is weak ;-)
“Men’s respect radars are finely tuned. If a women’s respect is not sincere it will be detected.”
Aha!
Cadders, you wrote about the very thing that I’ve been studying in a book titled For Women Only. I realized awhile ago that my husband needs my respect more than anything else.
The author writes that we as women need to demonstrate respect more than just saying a few words. She then lists four (she calls them needs) ways which a woman shows respect to a man. (the book is mainly geared toward women who are married, but I believe the applications apply to every man)
#1 Respect his judgment
#2 Respect his abilities
#3 Respect in communication
#4 Respect in public
I would be curious how many men reading this post would feel that these are accurate. If not, what ways do you know when you are shown genuine respect?
Cadders that was a really great comment!
I fully agree. I also think this is one of the things women most misunderstand about men.
I asked Maritus one evening what was more important to him, love or respect. The answer was respect. I believe most men are exactly the same. Though, I don’t think a woman can automatically just show respect for a man. She can do her utmost to do this, but if the man has not earned her respect, she is not going to be able to keep the show up forever. But, I also think, much as I said above, that a woman who shows respect for a man in being submissive, though she might not feel it, might inspire a man to begin to respect himself, therefore inspiring this feeling in her the more his masculinity grows.
Jacquie,
I think that list is quite good. These are things that I learned early on in my marriage were necessary and you’re right. One cannot show respect by simply saying a few words. A woman must live it, when her husband is with her and just as importantly when he’s not. I think a lot of women forget the importance of the second part or if they don’t forget, they struggle to fight the herd in not bad mouthing their husbands when other women are doing the same. It’s expected.
Respect is more important than love to a man.
Respect is shown by actions. I think my wife respects me from things like her habit of repeating, often verbatim, an opinion I have just given. That always makes me smile.
I kind of think too that if she is still hanging around after many years, she must think you are basically on the right track. I do wish sometimes my wife was a bit more obvious about it, although she has a nice habit of flattering me a little in public, which she seems to have developed recently.
On the other hand, my sister-in-law told me once that my wife respected me, and I got a real surprise. She darn well doesn’t always show it.
People are different. Maybe we Australians are more casual.
My wife is the cheeky type. But I was pleased yesterday when I came down to breakfast. She vacated the seat at the head of the table, put my breakfast there, and moved around to her usual place beside me. A little deference goes a long way.
Jacquie-
i read “for men only”. decent read. lol.
I worked as a fleet-controller at a hire-car company once. And my boss was one of the most impressive women I’ve ever met. What I remember the most about her, was an incident on a late Saturday afternoon.
I was still a driver then, and my boss was discussing logistics with another fleet-controller, more pointedly, when a group of hire-cars would arrive at another branch.
“So what do you think … three or four ?” she said to the fleet-controller.
” No ” I interjected, ” … you’re a ten … ”
… and she went quiet … looked at me … and started hyperventilating …
… oh what a woman … I loved her to bits …
A needy, clingy, self centered woman will also tend to be obese, difficult, and argumentative. Not fun to be married to, but also very demanding as far as commitments of time, money, energy, etc.
Housework will often be beneath her, yet her career won’t be so hot; she’ll “forget” lots of things, lose stuff, and be late for everything, but she absolutely won’t tolerate this in others. She will always be angry, hurt, or upset – and the fault is never hers.
Her sugar treats and long chats with her Grammy will be far more important than her husband; her children will have to deal with her short fuse and inability to forgive.
It will always be all about her – taxpayers, spouses, her parents, and her friends will always have to endure her inability to develop normal, healthy adult coping and survival skills.
She’s a mess, in other words, but she will simply see anyone who tells her so or refuses to coddle her as “mean.”
She will be an iffy girlfriend and a terrible life partner, unattractive and lazy.
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Many people have this amazing power, and it doesn’t work only on men (although it seems they are more susceptible). And some men have this power, too.
I’m starting to realize that in life, both of those powers are needed. The rock ability and the “bending and swaying” ability. But in a relationship, things can be more polarized.
Men be strong and as hard as rocks,
Women be supple and pliant as reeds,
All people be a beautiful compliment of both:
This is the way of the Tao.
@jacquie wordpress is so annoying with comment follow-up…
There’s a point at which you need to be able to say stop – you’re being dumb/too possessive/obsessive and I’m not taking this anymore. It’s a part of being responsible for yourself, I believe. Being overly submissive over-time weakens your resolve, status and facilitates dependency.
Xclampa,
I don’t know how to say this without it coming across wrong (I hate that about the internet), but with all sincerity, why do you assume that men married to submissive wives would become “dumb/too possessive/obsessive”? Also, I think you are confusing submissive with subservient. Two very different things. We aren’t subservient. We have strong opinions that our husbands readily seek out. However, they make the final decision.
@stingray
1. that’s not what I was implying. we are human, we get really dumb from time to time, make mistakes, and it’s good to have someone close face us. it’s one of the most valuable traits a spouse can have.
2. actually… my point exactly, made earlier in the thread. being submissive – great, supportive trait, subservient – bad for long-term relationships :) it was easy in my opinion to forget about the distinction reading this post.
xclampa,
Ah, I understand. I think submissive wives should definitely tell their husbands when they believe they might be doing something foolish. However, a wife should go about doing this in a very different manner than her husband would for her. We are their to support them and part of that is being honest.
MarkXS,
Thank you for that. I trained in an Indonesian martial art for several years and very likely heard this analogy back then. Only I didn’t remember that it came from Taoism. It is very beautiful.
Wow. Just Wow, Stingray. Glad you posted this link over at Rollo’s today. Brilliant, thank you!
I’m glad you liked it, Sadie. Thank you.
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