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Deti and I had a short conversation at Dalrock’s the other day regarding the respect a woman holds for her husband. Deti had this to say (edited for this post. Click the link to see the conversation unedited):
Women respect and love men not because of who the men are, but for what men can do for them.
A wife respects a husband not because of the man he is, but for what he does for her.
A wife respects a husband not because of who he is, but because he does what she wants him to do FOR HER.
So therefore, the converse must be true:
If he is unable to do for her what she wants, then he is not entitled to respect and in fact she is entitled to disrespect him.
If he does not do what she wants, then the husband is not entitled to respect and in fact she is entitled to disrespect him. . . .
This is depressing. Because I know at bottom, this is true. I know at her core, this is how my wife probably feels about me, too. I know deep down that if I weren’t the sole breadwinner in my home, my wife would probably be divorcing me now or shit testing me within an inch of my life. I know at their core, this is about how nearly all wives feel about their husbands.
You said that a woman will respect a man for what he does not by who he is. I am going to ask this and leave the “for her” part out (not because I disagree with this but because my question doesn’t have to do with this part of it): Is not who a man is defined by what he does? I don’t care about the for her part, I’m just talking in general. How does one know who a man is without observing what he does?
Not entirely. A man is also what he believes as manifested by what he says and does. A man is also what he speaks, because to a man, words mean things and men generally say what they mean and mean what they say. A man is also his past experiences.
But the “for her” part cannot be divorced from this analysis. A woman observes a man’s conduct and the sum total of his parts for the purpose of coopting him to serve her imperative. She assesses him to determine what he can do for her. She might not intend that. She might not be conscious of it. But make no mistake—she is doing just that.
A man is also what he believes as manifested by what he says and does.
Many women will have difficulty believing what a man says, especially at the beginning of a relationship. Many of us have been burned by men who said and did two very different things. But, as we are talking about respect between a husband and a wife, I would think that this disconnect would be very rare. I can’t get past the fact that, what a woman observes a man doing backs up everything he says, what his experiences are, are very much dependent on what he decided to do or not do in a given moment. I originally said I didn’t care about the “for her” part because so often respect from a woman (respect that she feels, not necessarily respect that she pays because she knows she should) comes from seeing a man do what is necessary and right regardless of what she *thinks* is good for her. What he does is simply right given the circumstances, what she thinks be damned. Though, as I have said before, he is still doing for her as he is providing consistency and stability. So, it is still coming back to what he is doing for her. Maybe where my confusion lies is because so many man are doing for their wives (at least in provisionary terms) yet are still not getting the respect they deserve?
What about respect between women? Is this any different? I can think of a handful of women I respect and that comes from what I have seen them do. This very much translates into who they are. So . . . what is it that I am missing?
I’m not sure if you’re a Christian or not, but the bible tells women to respect their husbands whether they deserve it or not. It’s not something that men earn, it’s an action that the woman does for her husband. I’ve also heard that men rise to the level of respect that their wives give, so if a wife thinks very highly of her husband, he is more likely to fulfill her expectations than if she thinks lowly of him. Either way, it is for both their benefit if she respects him. Respect should be unconditional.
Sis,
I agree with you, this is why I said respect that she feels, not necessarily respect that she pays because she knows she should. I am Christian and I fully agree with all that you said. That being said, there is a difference between respect a woman feels and respect a woman pays a man because she is called to. The behavior should not be any different, but paying man respect is going to take a lot of effort and control whereas giving a man respect because she feels it will come very naturally.
I do think when a woman pays respect toward a man when she may not necessarily feel it he will be more likely to step up, and when he does that feeling of respect from the woman will come as well.
Sis,
Aren’t you talking about showing respect here? Having genuine respect can’t be unconditional (unless it’s based on deference to authority and a husband is always the authority according to the bible), but there are benefits in showing respect consistently, and not losing it once he makes some mistake.
Stingray,
I could be wrong, but it seems to me Deti meant that “as soon as a man can’t provide anymore, she will lose respect for him, even though he would provide if he could”. Meaning he’s still the same man, but he hasn’t got the tools to do for her what he wants and finds necessary. So who he IS is still respectable, but he can’t express it anymore with actions. In that case, loss of her respect would feel unfair and depressing.
But like you, I think women can respect men who don’t do anything for them ( even an enemy can be respectable, right?), because certain traits are respectable on their own. But then you might say these traits are only respectable because a woman can potentially harness them for her own gain. But I find it hard to get depressed over that – nobody would date anyone unless they gave them something, be it pleasant company, respect or closeness.
Meaning he’s still the same man, but he hasn’t got the tools to do for her what he wants and finds necessary. So who he IS is still respectable, but he can’t express it anymore with actions.
Is it really this simple? I feel like a dolt. ;)
But this leads me to another question, if this is the case, is there any real respect there to begin with?
The longer I’m married, the more I discover that my husband is not the source of my respect. He’s really just a sinner who can’t get much right, he’s too proud, he makes mistakes constantly. He gets a lot right too; he loves me, he spends quality time with the kids, he’s handsome, he’s intelligent…..But what I’m trying to say is that my respect for him is based more on my relationship with God than it is on the worthiness of my husband. God is worthy of respect, God pours love and blessings on me, He lets me know that He will care for all of my needs, He makes me feel secure. (I don’t think it’s wrong for women to want security)
Once I’m feeling loved and secured by God, I can take my love and respect that I have for Him and pour it onto my husband. My husband isn’t worthy, or I take him for granted, but he doesn’t need to be because I already have all that I need. Out of my abundance, I’m able to give generously and respect freely without him having to earn it. Respect is a gift and I get to be the giver.
“But this leads me to another question, if this is the case, is there any real respect there to begin with?”
Heh, I’m not sure. Everyone keeps telling me women are so hypergamous that they could feel loss of respect/attraction when the guy loses providing ability, and that’s the end of it. Like, she thought she respected him for who he is, but once he can’t do much for her, she no longer feels it. But to me it’s unimaginable, so I don’t know.
I don’t know, Stingray. It seems to me that the same could be said of a man’s “respect” for his wife. If she stops earning it, why would he give it, except out of duty?
I do know that I can’t judge it because in my case, love and respect for my husband are too closely intertwined. I’ve seen him at his weakest, and I still respected him even though he was falling down big time. I knew there was more to him than that; he had already earned my respect permanently, even if he might never pull himself back together again. I was afraid for him. I was afraid for my future and my son’s future. I was angry at him, though I rarely let him see my anger (I didn’t want to make him feel worse.) During that time, he did almost nothing to inspire respect. I wasn’t even attracted to him. In fact, if I had first met him at that time, I would not have married him.
But my respect for him never diminished, and neither did my love. I didn’t let my anger, my disappointment or my fear, convince me that he was anything less that the man his is, and I deeply respect that man.
I suppose we need to peel back the layers. Hypergamy respects a man as a human-doing. Character respects a man as a human-being. And the ordinance of submission as one would for God respects a man unconditionally.
For women, respect is very intertwined with love. This is why virtue and introspection has to become a part of a woman. Light gaming is attractive, but (and I’m paraphrasing a commenter at Bellita’s) game cannot become a substitute for virtue. If a woman has no virtue, then the man ends up manipulating her to play the part. It’s lazy and selfish. And yes, disrespectful on her part. But most of all, it affects the breadth and depth of of how she loves.
Man (and woman) are meant to become more than nature. That doesn’t mean turning your back on hypergamy. (Do so at your own risk,) But women have to be held accountable to developing their higher traits.
I agree with what JV wrote, and the last sentence in particular nails it. Today’s society does not hold women accountable; women in general are not required to behave in an adult manner. And I believe this pertains to what Deti was saying. If women in general are behaving as children, what child has the capacity for genuine respect? They can be in awe of what they see an adult do, and they will see the adults in their lives for what they can get from them. Beyond that a child will only respect an adult to the extent of the authority that adult holds over them. A child’s mind, void of the maturation of actualities, naturally rebels against the authority over them.
I’ve seen this in my own children, even recently. My daughter felt that since she is now of legal age she is automatically an adult and did not need to heed to the rules as set forth by her dad and I. She was given the ultimatum to adhere to the rules as set forth, or leave. In the position she is currently, she needs the support we provide her. She has not fully matured at this point, legal age or not, so her respect for us only goes as far as what we can provide her.
And so it is for many women in our current society. There is nothing legally or socially that requires a woman to behave as an adult. And the legal system gives women the resources to dispose of their husbands while still getting from them the support they need to live. Who is going to have respect for someone who they consider disposable? The legal system does an incredible injustice to men, and undermines their authority and leadership in their homes. Women today have been taught from very young that men have no authority, that they are inferior. Just as a child does not listen to a parent unless the parent bribes them or in some way convinces the child it is in their best interest to do as they say, a woman will not listen to the man in her life unless there is something in it for her.
It seems to me that the same could be said of a man’s “respect” for his wife. If she stops earning it, why would he give it, except out of duty?
I don’t disagree, but that is what makes so many men angry, I think. A man shouldn’t lose respect if his wife is unable to help him and neither should a woman lose respect if a man can’t provide. On that same note, I don’t think men do lose respect like today’s women do. Neither is respect as important to most women as it is for men.
JV and Jacquie,
Thank you. Both of your comments and Emma’s I think nailed it for me. Deti was not not talking in the abstract, as in the husband provides dominance, strength, masculinity, love, virtue, etc. He was talking in the concrete. Almost as if the wife is respecting the pay check the man is receiving, not the man himself. Once that is gone, so goes the “respect” with it. If I am understanding this correctly, then my confusion is coming from the fact that this isn’t truly respect. I wouldn’t even know what to call it, really, but respect it is not.
Sad to say I think men and women operate on two entirely different levels. Most men I know can respect another man even if he has nothing or is not in any position to gain anything from that man. Men are judged by other men by their actions .
In my experience and those by most of my friends, is that with women it’s a case of what have you done for me lately. A huge pile of past good is negated by often some current perceived flaw. Case in point, I read an article recently about a woman “Dreaming of divorce”, she lists him leaving his shoes in the hallway and sniffing his armpits as a major problem, but a couple of years previously she wrote about how he stood by her when she went through a horrible bout with cancer and all the things he did in support.
In the comments section to this article the vast majority by women were cheering her on, claiming she had every right to feel the way she did and they often loathed the sight of their own husbands.The few men that posted did support her divorce, but from the angle that she was shallow and ungrateful, that her husband deserved the chance to meet someone that would be willing to over look his size 12’s in the hallway and armpit recon in exchange for his love and dedication to his wife and the marriage.
The biggest difference is in accepting responsibility, most men when faced with divorce will tear themselves apart examining themselves for flaws, but in any forum I’ve ever read where the wife left for reasons other than abuse or an unfaithful husband, this self examination by women is absent. Lord help any man suggest in most relationship forums or in comments to related articles that even in some small way, that just maybe the woman had some responsibility for the condition of her marriage. If he does he is shout down, called bitter, angry and “it’s no wonder his wife left him”
I think that anyone here, if they haven’t already, should read this post of Rollo’s. It’s directly related to the discussion.
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/relational-equity/
Women can still have respect for a man if he begins failing to live up to his role in the relationship. However, once he starts doing so he immediately enters dire straights and begins fueling the bonds of the relationship not with his own actions and provisions, but on the equity he has built up over the course of the relationship. Obviously this equity will vary from relationship to relationship, as well as the value of the equity to the individual woman. It could also be put in greater contrast with variables in things like religious beliefs (such as you women here) as well as her perceived options for men if she divorced.
@ Sis
“But what I’m trying to say is that my respect for him is based more on my relationship with God than it is on the worthiness of my husband.”
This made me cringe as a man. I would never want to be in a relationship like that, because I feel I need to earn my respect and that respect couldn’t be real without having earned it in some fashion. Remember that God calls us men to act in Godly ways through our actions, hearts, and souls. While we obviously fail and are flawed in that, if you respect God for his actions, heart, and soul – should not men also have earned a similar, if lesser, respect to that you offer to God through our Godly actions?
As for words vs actions. Words are nothing if not backed up with actual actions. I don’t know about women, but men are able to respect an idea without having to necessarily respect the man that had the idea. If he’s not able to back his idea, to bring it to fruition, or other variables…. He deserves no respect. Similarly, we can respect men that have no original ideas of their own, but have a strong moral core that they devoutly protect with their actions. To men it makes perfect sense to separate the two.
I’ll also put forward that the converse of this – what a man cares about for a woman – is not the respect of a relationship but the comfort she’s able to provide with her femininity. The man must give actions to earn the respect of a woman. The woman must give actions to earn the comfort needed for us to provide commitment and intimacy to bond with you.
I think I said that last part poorly, but hopefully you get the idea.
This is an interesting post. I know Deti is highly respected in these parts, and I hate to position myself as an outlier, but once again I disagree with him. Not entirely, because I recognize that people generally take those closest to them for granted and view them more in terms of utility than sentient beings of depth and complexity. Still, it is possible for even the weakest of women who need the most grace (which is how I see myself) to feel true respect for a man.
I am so in live with my husband and have so much respect for him. In the early years of our marriage when he was laid off and I was picking up the slack, that didn’t change. When he injured himself and was out of commission for 8 weeks leaving me to change the oil, cut the grass, etc., it didn’t change.
My father hasn’t provided materially for me in over 2 decades, my brothers and brothers-in-law? Never. I feel respect for these men. Admiration for their grit, integrity, and commitment to their families and/or children.
My point is that while I agree that our culture at large has relegated men to the realm of utility and yes, some (maybe even most) women have inherited that view, it is not inevitable that all women share that view.
is that with women it’s a case of what have you done for me lately.
What I trying to figure out is if this is innate, like hypergamy or learned. After reading Jacquie and Just Visiting and pulling from personal experience, I am thinking it is learned. It’s another entitlement thing and not inherent.
That story you tell is appalling. She should get up and move the shoes herself if they are an eyesore and him checking his scent is probably something he does so he doesn’t offend her with his smell. This guy can’t win no matter what he does. Even if he changed these things, she would find something else that is some kind of *offense*.
this self examination by women is absent. Lord help any man suggest in most relationship forums or in comments to related articles that even in some small way, that just maybe the woman had some responsibility for the condition of her marriage. If he does he is shout down, called bitter, angry and “it’s no wonder his wife left him”
More entitlement. I am continually baffled by this idea that these women are independent and empowered when they can’t take responsibility for anything.
I’ll also put forward that the converse of this – what a man cares about for a woman – is not the respect of a relationship but the comfort she’s able to provide with her femininity. The man must give actions to earn the respect of a woman. The woman must give actions to earn the comfort needed for us to provide commitment and intimacy to bond with you.
I think I said that last part poorly, but hopefully you get the idea.
I understand what you are saying. To men, respect is king. To a woman, comfort is king. Both must be earned by what each does.
Both a man and a woman need to bring something to the relationship. It cannot be one sided.
Elspeth,
Thank you for stopping by and Welcome.
I am beginning to wonder if things have gotten so bad out there that the definition of respect is being corrupted and this is what this is stemming from. True respect is everything you talked about, but I believe Deti when he says nearly all wives would divorce their husbands or test them to death if husbands were unable to provide what the wives wanted. I am at a loss for a different word that describes this though. Respect is not it. Rather, respect for the man is not it. Respect for his things, maybe, but I still don’t think so.
Leap,
Thank you for that link. I had read that one and had forgotten about it. Relationship equity seems to nail it. It’s not respect, rather something based on the balance of what each brings to the relationship. If that balance goes too far into her corner, that equity, what she was basing her idea of respect upon, is waning and she will test him or leave him for it. This is vastly different from what I understand respect to be and what is so incredibly important to men.
@ stingray
Yeah, equity is good food for thought. His article demonstrates that good deeds and support don’t necessarily equal respect, but it’s based on the circumstances. It also points to the fact that respect has to be continually earned and renewed.
Men bitch about this bit don’t understand that they function the same way with comfort. If we stop receiving that comfort from a woman we can make due on the equity of comfort that she’s built, but it won’t last forever. The problems lead to two things depending on the man. Either he goes into beta supplication/chaser mode or he starts exploring his options when he realizes he’s now being taken advantage of. Obviously molany men will balance circumstances like children and finances into it, but those only go so far before emotional and mental health of the man needs to take priority over that of a woman who’s become an emotional vampire and breaking her part of the relationship agreement between the man and woman
Everyone wants something from someone else. That’s just how it goes. This doesn’t make women worse, it’s just pointing out specifics, what this guy thinks is true but what probably isn’t but he’s just feeling that way because he might be doing some self-Fruedian analysis.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful but it sounds like he doesn’t believe he should be respected and is actually aware of that feeling and he might be projecting it. He does actually think his wife doesn’t repsect him and that’s sad because she’s right there to be asked. Communication is supposed to be key in marriages right?
That being said, he wouldn’t believe her because his issue is that he doesn’t think he should be respected, which would mean he’s lacking something. This isn’t a social issue, it’s a matter of him being unhappy with who he is. He should talk to her before he starts trying to make up excuses for why she’s stuck with him so long. I’d rather have had that happen first than have him making generalizing statements about women when he doesn’t really have anything to back it up. You’re eating up his generalizing statements without question, or at least, you haven’t given enough information to say that this is an issue and not just his issue.
Not sure if my phone or spam filter ate this, so gonna try typing it out again
But yes. Relationship equity is a good metaphor that clearly grasps how men and women consider and approach relationships. It is something that a relationship can temporarily survive on, but one must keep in mind that the equity YOU think you’ve built up doesn’t have the same value to the person that matters – your partner.
As such, respect is something that must constantly be earned. Or, if not constantly, then at least consistently enough to continue receiving respect.
Many men bitch about this. I think such bitching is silly. If the mirror of respect, comfort, disappeared from a relationship you’d be foolish to think any man would be ok with that. Yes, he might stay with you for a time as you use up the equity you’ve built with him, but I wouldn’t hold it against men if they left a relationship lacking in feminine comfort, so why should I hold it against women to leave one lacking masculine respect?
Easy answer – I shouldn’t. I would consider such a woman to have turned into an emotional vampire and treat her according to her changed nature after supporting her through the period where she’s used up all her equity. A woman should do the same to a husband if he’s lost everything that made him respectable as a man and used up that equity. Such relationships, for either situation, would lead to unhealthy emotional and mental states for those involved. For men it generally leads to a beta supplication/chaser mindset. Or, if he’s a healthy alpha, to beginning to explore his options as he comes to terms with the situation. Kids, finances, and other variables enter into both of those paths, but will only go so far before a relationship crosses over the ‘do not return’ brink.
The hard part, I believe, is that women (being a generally solipsistic and emotional creature), have a hard time accurately finding where that healthy place is. The current divorce laws ad social programs don’t help the situation. Many jump the gun on the situation before it truly would lead to long term mental and emotional health problems for her or the kids that are greater than the problems in those areas that divorce brings on. Hence the generations of damaged children.
This comment, retyped, actually turned out vastly different than the original. Or maybe just clearer and more in depth. Interesting.
Oh. And now the original shows up. Stupid phone
And she does not necessarily assess him to see what can be done for her. Outcomes don’t necessarily explain purpose. Women assess to see the man, not to see what he can do for her. Everyone assesses because we’re social people and that’s how you get to be social. You can’t help but want to identify people, to label them and put them in their proper shelves in the cupboard of your brain. Pots, dishes, canned foods. You can use them all or you can use none. Assessing is just identifying which is which. It does not automatically mean that someone prefers eating at home, just like assessing people should not necessarily mean the assessor prefers to use people.
Beside being hurt, it just makes sense to try and figure out whether someone’s actions are in accordance with their words. Does he have big dreams and does he follow through? That doesn’t necessarily mean that someone who asked that question in assessment of someone else, man or woman, would want to cling to that person in hopes of riding their coattails.
Up till recently, in western cultures/wealthy nations at least, women have provided by finding a provider. It wouldn’t have made sense for women to have considered only what a man said without considering his actions because of the urgency with which mating decisions had to be made. You wouldn’t want to throw your eggs into some basket you’re going to buy from an eBay seller with a picture and personal assurance that the basket will work for a long time when you see a sturdy basket in person that you can buy for the same price.
But, that still doesn’t mean that every woman or even most women look for what they can get out of men. That couldn’t be proven without a survey or something.
Dont really have the time to go deeper but for me:
Respect happens when the man doesnt bend but still gets the shit done. When he’s able to say no, and yes, but fulfills the need.
The lack of respect happens when the man bends all the time, or when he cant get any shit done.
And its not about making compromises. The man can simply never bend and still get the shit done – as long as he wants to = full respect.
Get the shit done but bend a lot = low respect.
Never get shit done = no respect.
Always bend (regardless of anything else) = anti respect.
I like the way you expressed it, Yohami.
As such, respect is something that must constantly be earned. Or, if not constantly, then at least consistently enough to continue receiving respect.
Yes, especially at the beginning of a relationship. However, as time goes on being steadfast is usually enough to continue receiving respect. One remembers past experiences and that goes a long way in maintained respect.
If the mirror of respect, comfort, disappeared from a relationship you’d be foolish to think any man would be ok with that.
I like this. I like it a lot. I have been discovering a whole lot lately that every masculine trait has a female mirror. It helps a whole lot in understanding male/female dynamics.
Such relationships, for either situation, would lead to unhealthy emotional and mental states for those involved.
I see where you are going with this, but I think the standard for divorce should be set even higher than you state 1) because I’m Catholic and 2) divorce is a horrible option for children unless there is abuse, addiction or something of the like going on.
Stupid phone
Alas, not your phone. Stupid spam filter.
Everyone wants something from someone else. That’s just how it goes. This doesn’t make women worse, it’s just pointing out specifics,
Agreed.
I’m not trying to be disrespectful but it sounds like he doesn’t believe he should be respected and is actually aware of that feeling and he might be projecting it. He does actually think his wife doesn’t repsect him and that’s sad because she’s right there to be asked. Communication is supposed to be key in marriages right?
I don’t think Deti is projecting. Rather, I think he knows that what he does within his marriage is worthy of respect and he is still not getting it. I know little of his back story but this is what I believe the case to be. He’s been around these parts for a long time and something he knows is that, despite what so many of us have been taught, no communication is not key in marriage. It is too easy for women to look at their husbands when asked something, take the respect thing for example, ask straight out if he’s respecting and the wife will say yes when she doesn’t. She doesn’t want to crush him and she can make herself believe in that moment that she truly does, even when most of the time she doesn’t. Argh! Someone else wrote about this recently and described it so much better than I am. Communication can be manipulated while watching how one behaves is much more relevant to a situation.
I’d rather have had that happen first than have him making generalizing statements about women when he doesn’t really have anything to back it up. You’re eating up his generalizing statements without question, or at least, you haven’t given enough information to say that this is an issue and not just his issue.
He does have information to back it up. The whole Eat, Pray, Love divorce thing is happening more and more and women eat it up, unfortunately. Take a look at Highlander’s comment above. Things like he described are becoming the norm and even encourage. Men in these parts tell and read stories of frivolous divorce everyday. Frivolous divorces do not happen when a wife respects her husband. As Suz says above, love and respect are so intertwined for a woman that when she feels this way about him, divorce is the last thing on her mind.
But, that still doesn’t mean that every woman or even most women look for what they can get out of men. That couldn’t be proven without a survey or something.
No, we are not talking about every woman, but it happens often enough these days that it is significant. Scarily significant. I agree with the rest of your comment for the most part. You lost me on the survey though, sylviasarah. You should do some reading on the reliability of surveys. Their abysmal. :)
Yohami,
Thank you for coming by and I hope you are having nothing but fun, right now.
The man can simply never bend and still get the shit done – as long as he wants to = full respect.
Get the shit done but bend a lot = low respect.
Never get shit done = no respect.
Always bend (regardless of anything else) = anti respect.
Yep. Agreed. I think it is the men who are in the top level that garner true respect and the men on the second that garner relationship equity.
How difficult is it for a man, a married man in particular, to go from the second up to the first? This is Athol territory, but I imagine it harder for a married man to do that than for a single man to find a new woman and garner her respect from day one with the changes he’s brought to his life.
Nothing but fun :-)
The second tier has to stop bending. You bend when you want to be nice. Bending should be a rare, rare gift given as the last resource when a win / lose scenario has been reached. The rest of the time there are better ways to solve the issues that caused the bending.
When a guy bends is like he’s saying “I dont know what to do here… so take my balls and do whatever you want with them”
Expect her to take the offer but not to be happy about it.
“yes, dear” should be banned.
What I read from deti is briffaults law in action. You are only respected for what you can *currently* provide and bring to the table. All past actions do not factor.
I supported my ex throught 3 unemployments. She dropped my after my first. Even tho I got a job it didn’t pay as well. Did not fit into her lifestyle.
Vows, commitment, word as bond, all secondary. Hypergamy kicked in. As rolo would say “hypergamy doesn’t care what I did for her”, all that mattered is what I couldn’t provide for her in the here and now. Love, respect, commitment. All slaughtered with ease because I would not be able to provide the future she imagined in her head, past reality be damned.
Expect her to take the offer
And if he is not lucky she will stomp on them until they are a pile of mush. If he is lucky, she will simply be angry about having them and wonder what she’s supposed to do with them?
M3,
I just came from your site and really liked your post about what your doing and what your buying. The situation that got you there is awful though. My trouble is seeing Briffault’s law, as you stated it, as respect. As I understand the term, it’s not. I love the article Leap linked to regarding relationship equity as it aptly describes what you are talking about.
Part of my problem is that I am defining respect by how I feel it. Can’t help it, as it comes with the territory. The ladies above feel respect as I do. When it goes beyond relationship equity respect, intertwined with love breeds loyalty and commitment. I think Just Visiting nailed it:
For women, respect is very intertwined with love. This is why virtue and introspection has to become a part of a woman. Light gaming is attractive, but (and I’m paraphrasing a commenter at Bellita’s) game cannot become a substitute for virtue. If a woman has no virtue, then the man ends up manipulating her to play the part. It’s lazy and selfish. And yes, disrespectful on her part. But most of all, it affects the breadth and depth of of how she loves.
Man (and woman) are meant to become more than nature. That doesn’t mean turning your back on hypergamy. (Do so at your own risk,) But women have to be held accountable to developing their higher traits.
Jacquie too: Today’s society does not hold women accountable; women in general are not required to behave in an adult manner. And I believe this pertains to what Deti was saying. If women in general are behaving as children, what child has the capacity for genuine respect?
You pair a woman who has learned to behave like an adult with a man in Yohami’s top tier and you have an unstoppable couple. It’s sadly rare these days. Possible, most certainly, but rare.
“yes, dear” should be banned.
Nah, it should simply be placed back in the mouth of women, followed by “Is there anything I can get for you?” said along with a beautiful smile.
“How difficult is it for a man, a married man in particular, to go from the second up to the first?”
I can only imagine it being incredibly difficult, but that also a lot of it will depend on the woman he’s with. If she’s knowledgable and supportive of his change then probably much much easier. If she’s not either of those then difficult. If she’s an unhealthy, emotional vampire I think it’d be harder.
I mean, hell. I did this very thing in a work environment. It was the hardest thing I’ve done in a long, long time. And I got fired for it.
Standing up for yourself and becoming someone -worth- respect doesn’t mean that the person you’re with will give it or be happy about it. They could very well be someone not worth earning that respect with.
Oh, and as to this:
“I see where you are going with this, but I think the standard for divorce should be set even higher than you state 1) because I’m Catholic and 2) divorce is a horrible option for children unless there is abuse, addiction or something of the like going on.”
I agree. Even not being Catholic. That’s why I put Children as something of a variable to be considered at the least, if not worth the sacrifice of just sticking through it. Statistically my life span has been shortened five years from my parent’s divorce, apparently. Though I plan on breaking that statistic by actually dealing with my bullshit issues in my head space. That or dying young doing something amazingly stupid and awesome
Though I plan on breaking that statistic by actually dealing with my bullshit issues in my head space.
It seems like you are well on your way to doing this. I have not had time to do more than scan your recent posts (I’m sorry you were fired, though in the long run it could be a very good thing as it seems you learned a ton in the experience) but what you have accomplished of late seems amazing. Tough, but it all makes you stronger.
That or dying young doing something amazingly stupid and awesome
Name it after me.
Oh . . . and go read what you wrote at M3’s yesterday. ;)
Definitely making me stronger. And clearing out a lot of extra energy for the things that matter instead of their stupid BS and using me for free labor.
Also, didn’t know you read M3. Now it makes sense.
Stalker.
Stalker.
HA!
Now go drink that beer. It’s still early.
Can’t yet. Finishing some draftings because a show changed today and I need to get them out to my carpenter. THEN drinking. In the new tweed blazer that I look sharp as hell in that just got in today.
Then why are you talking to me?! ;)
Finish and go out. Wait, do I tell a man to go “work” his new tweed blazer or is that just for women? I’m getting old . . .
No, you go tell a man to go ‘work’ the women he encounters while in the blazer. And I’m talking to you because doing so puts me in a good mood with distractions from drafting. Which I’m now done with, leaving this coffee shop, and out to have a good time.
Later.
I sometimes get “Is there anything else you want?” Which is nice.
I would say there is a difference between respect and civility.
The former is for people i may know. The latter is for others.
The problem i have is that automatically granting respect for people has too often been undeserved.
A little suspicion and contempt goes a long way.
I sometimes get “Is there anything else you want?”
I don’t understand why this is such a difficult thing for women to ask? Marriage has turned into a competition instead of companionship.
The problem i have is that automatically granting respect for people has too often been undeserved.
A little suspicion and contempt goes a long way.
Agreed, though I prefer indifference over contempt. Contempt should be earned as well.
This idea of everyone deserves respect must die.
RE Sylviasarah’s comment:
1. Always put more stock in what a woman does than what she says.
2. A woman can rationalize ANYTHING.
3. Women care less about a man’s inward character and more about his outward abilities and attributes. Women take the measure of a man through his observable actions taken but only to the extent those actions serve her interests; which does not necessarily assess his entire character.
Deti, are you seriously implying that your three bullet points can’t also be applied to men?
1. Always put more stock in what anyone does than what they say.
2. Any person can rationalize anything? Didn’t you just say over at Dalrock’s that when a man can’t tell when a woman doesn’t really love him it’s “the same principle is at work when a slut falls for a player”?
3. The more beautiful a woman is, the more likely it is for a man to rationalize away the red flags in her character. Additionally, no one’s actions at any given time encompasses their entire character.
I don’t mean to be perpetually contrary with you for the heck of it. It’s just that you present yourself as a Christian man and while I agree with you that the modern woman is a mess, a basket case, and a huge risk as a marriage partner in many cases, you also seem to balk at the Christian teaching that we all have a sin nature that left unchecked makes us all unsuitable.
Additionally, as I have pondered this lately, a friend reminded me that Ferd used to say (when he was still blogging) that the men and women in a society tend to be at a similar level of quality on average. I was struck that a non-Christian man seems to have a better grasp of reality than those of us who claim to know the Truth.
Elspeth:
I have no problem with you being contrary with me. I cannot imagine anyone I’d rather spar with. *smiley face*
I didn’t imply anything beyond what I said. Where have I said that men have no sin natures? Where have I said that I have no sin nature? I’m just as much a sinner as anyone else. I’ve not denied this either.
I’ll take the blame for my transgressions, but I will no longer be made to bear the responsibility for my wife’s sins, nor for the sins of any other women. Nor will I suffer gladly anyone telling me that I should bear that responsibility.
You know as well as I do that the base, evil, sinful nature of men is extolled, written about, analyzed, picked apart everywhere. The evil nature of men is blamed for everything in society. It’s just not true. It’s time we looked at female depravity and examined its role in societal breakdown.
I will give you this, Elspeth.
Men are sinful. I am selfish, prideful, greedy and self centered.
I work too hard to the detriment of health, sanity, and family.
I drink too much, eat too much and exercise too little.
I don’t pray enough, play enough or enjoy life enough.
I want to rawdog 70% of the women I see. If I could get away with it, had no conscience and didn’t care about my wife, my kids, or my eternal salvation, I’d rawdog them all. If those 75% would sleep with me, I’d sleep with them.
I am lazy, slothful, and neglectful.
And this isn’t even all my sins.
I have no problem with you being contrary with me. I cannot imagine anyone I’d rather spar with. *smiley face*
You guys make it hard for me to spar with you when you’re so nice.
I didn’t imply anything beyond what I said. Where have I said that men have no sin natures? Where have I said that I have no sin nature? I’m just as much a sinner as anyone else. I’ve not denied this either.
Agreed. I’m always a little taken back when men reveal that they ever felt a need to take the blame for their wives shortcomings. The men in my life (father, husband) don’t seem to have inherited than tendency.
You know as well as I do that the base, evil, sinful nature of men is extolled, written about, analyzed, picked apart everywhere. The evil nature of men is blamed for everything in society. It’s just not true. It’s time we looked at female depravity and examined its role in societal breakdown.
Yes, I do know. I have blogged about it myself. As much as I recognize it as a part of mainstream culture, female pedestalization isn’t really a part of the landscape where I come from. Sadly, it is slowly taking a bit of a hold in the churches of the community where I was raised, but nothing on the scale of what you see in the larger American church and culture.
The reason I spar and offer an opposite opinion from you so often is because it seems that there are a good number in these parts who believe that women are inherently more sinful than men, rather than the reality that women are just as depraved and sinful as men. This manifests itself in different ways but the root is the same. I would never deny that nor would I bother as it would be a fool’s errand for the likes of me at this point.
Elspeth,
I don’t think it’s about the fact that men or women don’t sin. It’s about what we are constantly bombarded with in everyday life and that is men are bad and women are good. Most of us believe that, even the Christians, who are the first to say all are sinners. Only women are being excused and men are being accused and thrown under the bus. Most women are caught in some perpetual “better than thou” type place as that’s how they are always treated and men are in some perpetual sacrificial/martyrdom place and everything’s a mess.
So yeah, you are absolutely right, and I think we all know you are right. Only we don’t talk about it at the same level because it is known that men sin. It is taught that men are far worse sinners and some balance must be brought back. Hence why things are so often talked about on the woman’s side being bad and the men’s side being good. It’s a harsh way to get at the truth and restore some balance.
damn this popcorn’s tasty.
believe that women are inherently more sinful than men
As a group, in their lack of self discipline and control, it could be argued that they are. Or rather, that their sins have become so overt that it at least appears that way. Can it be argued that a man denying his dominant nature and supplicating himself before women and not before God is a sin? I think so, yes (though I am not nearly as well read in the Bible as many of you, so I don’t claim to be 100% right on this). Only this is such a passive action that it is much more difficult to identify. So the culture tends to focus on perceived sins of the Alpha male whether they are true sins or not.
Hey Danny!! Beer with your popcorn?
“The reason I spar and offer an opposite opinion from you so often is because it seems that there are a good number in these parts who believe that women are inherently more sinful than men, rather than the reality that women are just as depraved and sinful as men.”
What Sting said above. If anything, everyone is taught that women DON’T sin, and it is ONLY men who sin.
Also: we’re taught that if a woman has premarital sex, she’s just looking for love. She just wants to get a husband and she’s going about it the only way she knows how. But if a man has premarital sex, that evil man is using and abusing her. He tricked her into it.
If a woman lies, well, she’s just defending herself. She was forced to do it to get what she needs. But if a man lies, he’s a dirty dog who done her wrong.
If a woman frauds her way into a marriage, well, she’s just doing what she can to get a husband. But if a man frauds his way into a marriage, he’s a low down dirty liar who deserves to be divorced and hung out to dry.
Also: we’re taught that if a woman has premarital sex, she’s just looking for love. She just wants to get a husband and she’s going about it the only way she knows how. But if a man has premarital sex, that evil man is using and abusing her. He tricked her into it.
If a woman lies, well, she’s just defending herself. She was forced to do it to get what she needs. But if a man lies, he’s a dirty dog who done her wrong.
If a woman frauds her way into a marriage, well, she’s just doing what she can to get a husband. But if a man frauds his way into a marriage, he’s a low down dirty liar who deserves to be divorced and hung out to dry.
I agree with you on all counts this time.
deti,
It comes down to strength. Who has it and who wants control. Women use their weaknesses as a means to control and everyone eats it up. Use what works. Only, women believe this stuff because if they believe it they don’t have to feel so bad about what they’ve done. It’s the power of the hamster.
We’re simply in a place where, for the first time in human history, women instead of men are causing widespread damage to a society. There are multiple times men have run countries into the ground, so society and cultural laws have evolved to address problems to men.
To further muddy the waters an the problem, it is very much arguable that men, ultimately, are responsible for the current situation because we passed the laws and let it happen. It’s particularly frustrating because most of the men facing these problems were handed them by previous generations instead of from us currently here. Sadly, that too is also a constant through human history; of current generations fixing previous generations messes.
That being said, dalrock just had an article today where women are blaiming older men for dating younger women instead of settling with a 30+. The younger women are blaming the older men for why they’re not settling down. Theyre unable to see that the older men are created by men that were frustrated in their 20’s and refusing to settle down as older gentlemen.
As a man, while I believe that men are probably the only ones that can change the SMV, that women can’t, I still consider them fully responsible for their actions and for their half of the SMV. I just consider them unable to take any direct action to change it other than knowing an controlling their Hypergamy to chose a good husband. Women will never, as a group, pass laws on divorce or anything else to fix the problem.
Which is a long way of saying humanity until now had a solid, unchanging ability to control women with a constantly changing and evolving way to control men
I have long thought that men are seen as more sinful than women because men’s sins are more outward and spectacular. Women’s sins tend to be done in private places, and inwardly.
I don’t want to imply, BTW, referring back to my wife asking me “Is there anything else you want?”, that she is some kind of mouse. I think it is just good wifely manners that she learned from watching her mother.
I often get asked permission to spend money too. I always “give permission”, but I do appreciate being asked. It is just nice wifely manners.
deti, only 75%? How many orifices? You think YOU are a sinner?
SR-
this is a post i will not chime in on. i’d prefer to read.
Leap,
It’s not the first time in human history, but I understand what you are saying. I think you would really like the book The Fourth Turning by Strauss and Howe. It explains in scary detail generational goings on and how it is cyclical back through recorded history. I confess, Maritus read the book, not me and we discussed it at some length, so I don’t know everything about it. What we discussed was fascinating.
Yes, men did pass the laws that allowed women to be where we are at today. Women asked and demanded for permission for their voices to be heard and represented by themselves. Women, as a whole, failed. That being said NAWALT ;). There were groups of women who wanted nothing to do with this responsibility and they very eloquently tried to make their voices heard. They were unsuccessful, however.
As a man, while I believe that men are probably the only ones that can change the SMV, that women can’t, I still consider them fully responsible for their actions and for their half of the SMV.
I agree with this. As a group, women are not going to freely give up their current power. When things balance back out, the awakening that awaits many of these women will be a very rude one indeed.
David,
It’s understood about your wife not being a mouse. I do the same thing. I ask permission to spend large amounts of money. It’s not my name on the pay check. I always ask Maritus if there is anything he needs because I’m his wife. I’m his companion throughout his life. It’s my job to take care of him, just like he takes care of me. I’m not accusing you of doing this, but I hate that so many assume that a wife caring for her husband is some kind of pushover. I get the same care in return. How is this dynamic in anyway oppressive?
Danny,
I know. I was playing hostess. ;)
@ Stingray and any other wives in the audience
“I do the same thing. I ask permission to spend large amounts of money. It’s not my name on the pay check. I always ask Maritus if there is anything he needs because I’m his wife. I’m his companion throughout his life. It’s my job to take care of him, just like he takes care of me.”
I’m curious. Did you women do this kind of behavior BEFORE the red pill? If so, was it before marriage? When did you incorporate these behaviors and why?
Mostly curious for getting a female perspective on what I consider an important indicator of good wife behavior.
@ Leap
Not a wife anymore, but these were behaviors that were always a part of my marriage. Because my parents were divorced and had unconventional lifestyles, I modeled my marriage on my grandparents, great aunt’s and uncles, ect. Traditional wisdom (Red Pill) was just common sense.
I’m curious. Did you women do this kind of behavior BEFORE the red pill? If so, was it before marriage? When did you incorporate these behaviors and why?
I did, though I think I do it more now. I would have moments of “female empowerment” before and not want to ask things like if he needed anything. With the money . . . I’m cheap. Too cheap, so I have always asked because it is his name on the check (though he reminds me that he could not work as hard without me holding down the fort. I help earn the money to, so don’t ask unless it’s necessary), and because he does the bill paying. Being cheap, I like to have a budget to spend. Being too cheap can be just as bad as spending too much, I’ve learned.
Why? I think because of the way I was raised for one, and two, I really like to make him happy. My mom asks my dad if he needs anything and we were taught to do the same. If your getting something for yourself, ask if someone else wants anything as well. Add to that, Maritus does this for me as well and there you go. There is something . . . joyous . . . about seeing the look in your man’s eyes when you bring him something like a sandwich, or a drink. It’s that look of being grateful and happy. To be able to give him that look and that feeling is wonderful.
Ok. That’s what I thought, but I wanted to garner if it was something you women always had or that came over the course of the relationship. I feel like I’ve seen a majority of women that don’t do that – ever. Some that learn to do it as they hit their late 20’s when the clock starts ticking. And a minority that it just occurs due to their natures and how they were raised. Wasn’t sure where most red pill women fell in that, but suspected it was one of the smaller latter two groups.
I’ve been waiting for this post since you asked Deti if you could write about it. Then I became busy.
I haven’t read all the comments, but I just wanted to say that when Job has had enough of his torments, he demands that his judge show up and judge him, and after Elihu goes on for 6 chapters about the greatness of God, God shows up and gives 4 chapters of what he has done; not what he likes, or believes.
We’re not God, but there is no shame in giving an accounting for ourselves unless our accounting reveals shameful things.
In other words: A tree is know by its fruit–not what it’s like on the inside.
I think my wife asks my permission to spend money for a few reasons. She is tight with money anyway, and likes to follow a budget. She asks my permission when she wants to spend money on her own magazine subscriptions and plants for the garden and so on. I think it is her unconscious sense too that I am the head of the house. I don’t think she consciously thinks of me like that. It seems to be instinctive.
It is very Red Pill to see a woman doing things that are very submissive almost without thinking. Sometimes even as she is complaining about it.
As for asking if there is anything I want, I think that is just her being a dutiful wife. She believes in roles and duties. She expects me to be a stable breadwinner. She sees her role as supportive. I assume she got that from her mother. However unlike her mother, she has worked, part-time at least; but she is a bit Old World in other ways.
She is VERY dutiful. We had a blackout here once (no light or power) and she still managed to put dinner in front of me.
She actually does more for me than I would expect.
Just now she said, “Have you had enough to eat?”
Did you women do this kind of behavior BEFORE the red pill? If so, was it before marriage? When did you incorporate these behaviors and why?
Honestly, my husband triggers in me a desire to serve him. That was before I got a clue about the Biblical command concerning reverencing and submitting to my husband. That solidified it for me in ways that went beyond my feelings for him.
I am more cognizant of a lot of things in recent years than I was before I encountered what y’all refer to as the red pill.
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I think it is kind of instinctive in my wife too. I don’t think it is religion in her case.
I thought about it some more and I guess if I had to compare, when I met him it was like the pleasure of siting under a big oak tree on a perfect spring day. it just felt right.
And yes, I recognize that it sounds solipsistic to say that, but it’s still true. The fact that it’s still true after 18 years must account for something,
I have matured though and now understand that this is my place no matter how I feel about it.
Stingray.
Would you know anything about Vox Day’s infamous Great Japanese Naval Invasion Debate ?
Marellus,
Nope. That was before my time at Vox’s place. I have heard it mentioned many times and one is always warned to not bring it up. Apparently, that horse has been beaten to a bloody pulp.
Elspeth, you are a woman after my own heart.