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I started taking notes on this post nearly a month ago and it is something I have had in mind for a very long time. Only, I could not get my thoughts straight enough on this topic to be comfortable attempting to post on it. I had been thinking about it for most of the weekend, decided it was time to attack it, but had still been apprehensive about it when, lo and behold, Rollo posted this gem today (read the comments as well, as some are very relevant to my point). From the post:
Hypergamy wants an optimized state.
Yes. Yes it does. Hypergamy (or concupiscence? I am still working on that one, but I think so) not only wants it, but demands it. When this state is reached by a woman there is nothing that will stop her from loving that man and she will do almost anything (and in some cases, anything) to be with he who gives this to her.
There is a lot of talk around the manosphere about how a woman will take a man for half his worth, the house, the kids, everything, and it obviously happens (and happens too often). One can read personal stories of this happening at just about every site out there. What one rarely hears about are those women who can’t even fathom doing this. It is anathema to even consider it for a moment. There is talk of these women being “red pill” or the “good ones,” and while their personalities obviously make a difference, what one does not often read is the reason these women will never leave; that these women not only love, but willingly dote, serve and submit to their husbands and are extraordinarily happy to do it. The reason these women are happy is because, overwhelmingly, their husbands are overtly masculine. They are the rocks that their wives will cling to and give everything to prop up.
This manliness is quite separate from what many understand Game to be, as one doesn’t often hear about these men being overly concerned with whether or not they were able to neg effectively or whether or not they passed a fitness test. What they are concerned with is their goal. What is important to them is attaining that goal and surrounding themselves with people who will help them reach that goal (and not allowing those who will not into their lives). Game is not a concern to them as they know who they are on such profound level that it’s simply unimportant. He is Man and that’s all anyone needs to know. Now, that being said, I am not dismissing Game as I think that given how men are blatantly taught to be effeminate today that it is an effective tool for one striving to reach this state of Man. I may not agree with all it’s applications (spinning plates, P and D, et cetera), but it is a tool for men to use in their growth in becoming Man.
These Men who achieve this have a power over women that I don’t think many men yet fully understand. There is still a lot of talk of the risks of divorce and what a women is state sanctioned to do to her husband. Yet, for a woman lucky enough to be married to man like this, leaving him for any amount of money is inconceivable. I’ve been told “that word does not mean what you think it means“, but for her what she would lose is far more valuable than anything she could ever take from him.
If one reads the various sites on a regular basis, one sees more and more evidence of this type of masculinity. Masculinity that is there for itself and for it’s own purposes (this sounds selfish, though it does not have to be. The purpose is often higher than the man). Many of these men have stated that they are going their own way, not so much out of giving up but rather they refuse to settle. They have a list of things that MUST be in a woman and they simply have not found a girl to match it yet. As a man like this is very enticing to women if and when he does choose, the women around him will notice and take note of whom he chose. “Who is she, what is it about her that drew him to her, what qualities does she posses that I might lack?”. Other women will take note and some will try to figure out what they can do to attract a man of the same caliber (while other will deride the woman that was chosen, it is inevitable and has always been).
My point in all of this is that the strength and draw of strong masculinity on women still seems to be vastly underrated. There are often comments of how men will never marry because the thought of gaming their wives every day for the rest of their lives is simply overwhelming. It is not that one need game his wife everyday for the rest of his life, it’s that he must be a man everyday for the rest of his life. It’s not something that he must do for her, to make her happy or to make her tingle. It is something he must do for himself because he is MAN. For this reason and for no other.
***This is not a plea to Man-Up Bill Bennet style. Rather, it’s a call for men to embrace what God has given them for mens’ own sakes. People in your lives may have taught you untruths, untruths that were embraced unquestioningly, but your masculinity is an extremely large part of who you are. Your education may have mislead you but you can educate yourself to the truth.
Robert M Hutchins writing about the crisis of the West’s education in that it is too specialized:
. . . and in view of the urgent need for unity and community, it does not seem an exaggeration to say that the present crisis calls first of all for an education that shall emphasize those respects in which men are the same, rather than those in which they are different. The West needs an education that draws out our common humanity rather than our individuality . . .
In this connection we might recall the dictum of Rousseau: ‘It matters little to me whether my pupil is intended for the army, the church, or the law. Before his parents chose a calling for him, nature called him to be a man . . . When he leaves me, he will be neither a magistrate, a soldier, nor a priest; he will be a man.’
Men may not have Rousseau to turn to today, but these truths are out there to be found and used to become the Man you choose to be.
Well said. Especially this:
“It is something he must do for himself because he is MAN. For this reason and for no other.”
I’m grateful to be the beneficiary of my husband’s masculinity, yet if I weren’t around, he’d still be masculine.
I applaud this post for its something that I always felt instinctually and unconsciously. Im a 20 yr.man and a month ago I swore and I vowed to live every moment of every second of every minute of hour of every day of my life with dignitas and honour and gravitas actoritas and self respect and insubordinate and unsubmittingly inflexible dominion of an unbreakable willful King. With callously mercilessly ruthlessly godly disregard for defeat or victory and life or death, friend or foe, fear or shame or guilt or insults or praise or manipulation,rejection or acceptance or comprimise or sensibilities.i am firmly in charge of myself permanently.
The problem is no man can be this way all the time, life throws crap at you that you have no control over such as unemployment, sickness, or periods of grief over the loss of loved ones where you show vulnerability. You can be the rock for 20 years, till life grinds you down or you hit a rough year, then it can be all over in the space of a couple of months if your wife has the opportunity to better her circumstances.
Unstopped by loss or misfotune or destiny or fate or persons or women. In command and in power and in control of my soul. Like Rasputin with undying narcisussism and vanitas.
Exactly, Stingray. The PUAsphere is so preoccupied with imitating alpha that they fail to locate its essence. The fears and anxieties that grip the shrinking-violet beta males as they huddle together for warmth and alpha instruction simply do not manifest themselves among men being men. It baffles me why they are so frightened by women, so easily spooked into misbehavior by them. It’s not misogyny so much as gynophobia.
Perhaps it goes back to your last post: the woman’s secret/indirect power is an intimidating power because they cannot fathom where it begins or ends; therefore they feel they must assail it directly for fear it will insinuate itself into their community without anyone noticing. So girls are routinely attacked as attention whores in PUA comboxes just for showing up. It’s like pulling on pigtails.
I can only testify to my own experience. And these legendarily hypergamous slutbags who would just as soon fuck you as steal “half your assets” seem like figments to me. I certainly have never met one that was utterly impervious to masculine power or cultural shaming. Maybe they are caricatured as demoniacal to serve as the scapegoats that unite cults around ideas through personifying and then destroying them, like The Wicker Woman. All I know is, put me at a table with them one-on-one, serve a couple drinks, and I’ll have the “bitch shields” thawed permanently in an hour. Guaranteed or your money back. They’re not so scary when you talk to them, omega man.
Matt
If I may de-lurk with an opinion from the opposite gender and a very opposite culture, Bulgarian.
I was thinking these days of the Manosphere and the more I read, the more it seems a very American thing. My un-PC view is that human nature and its details such as gender roles are very regional. By regional I mean not only cultural and sentimental, but also geography-based.
Nature in Bulgaria is gentle. The predators were always small, the weather mostly mild and even the highest peaks walkable. So a woman may not only survive, but thrive on her own. It will be a simple, but quite ample existence and a lot of women in villages live like this even today.
Now, if I were a woman on the American continent, at almost any point in history, I am mostly toast. I would indeed need a man for survival and he would be the only true asset I own. Very few of my feminine assets would be worth anything in survival terms. So I can imagine how the women on that too vast, too dangerous continent are literally worth nothing, and how they needed harsh laws to give them any power. Replace harsh nature with highly-developed economy and it’s still the same picture, despite affirmative action.
You may say that Bulgaria is uncivilized, simple, still very much a village civilization and true masculinity makes complex, powerful civilizations. Yes, for sure. Also, those high and complex civilizations breed neuroses, and there is the need to run with all your strength just to remain in the same place. I don’t know which is in the final analysis wiser and more fitting to human nature.
Here, civilization is simple, and women, therefore, can be people of consequence. Yes, out strengths are few and perhaps could not build a high civilization of organized masculinity. But it’s incredibly refreshing to be a person of consequence. That way, men are not our only rock- but we are not castrating bitches either. We have a rock, as in actual rocks and ground and fine weather and a certain healthy barbarism and disregard for too fine a civilization. Men here are also people of consequence. And we get together to make life more fun. Less neuroses that way. Less running and more fine leisure.
In a way, the American woman cannot truly be a person of consequence. There are too few true rocks for her. Men are not enough of a rock. One needs to be rooted in deeper things to feel secure. So she carves consequence out of her power to hurt men.
Feminity and tenderness should spring from the same place as true chivalry: from a sense of personal power and consequence. That way, they are not a passive response, but a gift, a refreshing spring of the water of good mood. I cannot imagine being robbed of everything and being tender and feminine, I would be too busy panicking.
After all, when women have enough resources, we can afford to be persons and let me tell you, we make pretty good persons. I was amazed that the movie Avatar had this egalitarian society, and at first I considered it a kowtow to American gender equality, but think of it- that imaginal natural habitat indeed allowed both males and females to thrive on their own skills.
For a woman, the best thing is to have nature on her side. Some pieces of this pretty globe are made for women and the women there are fine people.
@ Hipparchia,
You paint Bulgaria in such a positive light! Makes me want to move there… :-D
You sure you’re not from the tourist board or something? :P
Just teasing…
It’s a hell hole, and not for everyone. Not glitzy, and a bad economy, but for a certain kind of person it may be heaven. It’s true about the climate though, and nature. Things grow easily here and laziness is possible, if you don’t mind a simple life.
In fact, as a young person, I am sort of expected to emigrate, but I like it here just because it’s surreal and tricky.
And you have to be careful with Bulgarian women, of course, the tides are changing and there are landmines among the traditional females, women who learned all the Ameriskank tricks. Which has also produced a fun local breed of PUAs, complete with peacocking. They’re really cute with their fuzzy hooded jackets, like urban wolverines.
I’m definitely having fun people-watching here…
Most of tourism sucks, though. People come here for the cheap alcohol and other cheap things.
@ Hipparchia,
“Which has also produced a fun local breed of PUAs, complete with peacocking. They’re really cute with their fuzzy hooded jackets, like urban wolverines.”
This made me laugh out loud :-D
This is so true of the Red Pill once you’ve taken it. Everything the opposite gender does seems amusing to you…
I am sure Red Pill men can see through ‘Girl Game’ too, in the same manner as you can see through these PUAs in Bulgaria…
Fantastic.
Maybe I really should come join you on your people-watching sessions. I enjoy that very much, especially these days post Red Pill…
From Learning to Play:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/08/31/learning-to-play/
The necessity of Game in marriage is actually what taught me the most about Game. I understand what you’re saying about overt masculinity being a necessary element in a solid marriage, but I think you don’t fully grasp what internalizing Game really means.
When I deal with my wife, my daughter, my mother, my co-workers, even some of the people I do work for, I use Game. I don’t sit there and consciously think, “hmm, she’s giving me a shit test, shall I agree & amplify or go with cocky / funny?” What guys think of as Game is part of my personality, it’s autonomous, I am Game now. I don’t think about it because Game is just my default response now. It’s internalized to the point where the only time I am cognizant of it is when I find myself in a situation where I see a blatant example of some behavior that verifies my understanding of Game.
PUA / Game teaches the tools of the greater whole. I know plenty of guys who are physically impressive examples of an overt masculinity who still subscribe to a beta mindset. Their wives are completely devoted to them because of the natural DHV that their masculinity confers upon them, but they stay so out of necessity, knowing that their SMV is still 2 points below his. In other words, they lucked out and had their hypergamy satisfied by getting a masculine man to commit to her lower value because his beta mindset convinced him that she was the best he could do.
Optimized Hypergamy wants a high value man who is oblivious to his own value.
@Suz
Exactly.
Vicarious Vanity,
Be strong like the Sun.
Highlander,
There will always, always be something that will challenge you. Of course you’re right. And a man should always be given time to grieve, recoup, and heal. There are masculine ways to do this and any woman will recognize this. Masculinity also has a way of building up in a woman. She knows that even though you may not be able to be at your most masculine today, it’s ok because without question, it will come back.
Now, having said that, yes. Some women seem incapable of that today and a woman must be chosen with care. Yet, I believe more women are capable than most men think. Only they need to be taught what is expected of them. I think what men need to consider from any woman today is, if I want to marry her, if I think she is worth my time, am I willing to teach her what she needs to know to be my wife? She isn’t being taught this from our society, so is it something you as a man are willing to do?
If she is taught, she will be patient through the rough times and step up when necessary.
@ Hipparchia
Being robbed of everything is about where American women are today. Back when we were a nation of farmers and we were developing America, women were of more consequence. Women used their femininity and their strength to help carve a life for her husband and children. She helped carve a place in her community by aiding other women, in teaching them their strength and their roles. She helped other women bear children, raise children and tend to their homes. I think women were of far more consequence when times were simpler and life was harder.
@ Rollo
Of course. We do not disagree. You say you are Game now. Only, you are not Game, you are Man. It is internalized completely, so it’s not Game any more. It’s Rollo Tomassi, the Man. Game is what men use to describe what you do naturally as a Man. It is the process one can use to learn from on their own journey. I don’t discredit or disagree with Game. It is part of the process of understanding and it is incredibly useful in breaking masculinity down to learn from and grow from. But at some point, it needs to be utterly internalized. The Game needs to be let go and must become Man, just as you have done.
@Stingray:
Yes, it mostly takes an agrarian society for women to build their own backing of value and personal power. This is being taken away here as well, as we become more urbanized. But still, women hold some power. For instance, education is considered a girl’s strength, up to the highest levels. And it is respected, and also useful, so it gives us power. We are not modern enough to have the totally useless studies, but we’re getting there :)
Also, in cases where the man may be less powerful, less of a character, he is still a man when it comes to his ritual functions. We have a ton of folk beliefs and for some holidays, only a man can perform certain ritual tasks. Women knead and bake the bread, men break it apart and give it to household members. Men kill ritual animals. Men kill the pig at Christmas. So no matter how weak they are, they know they have value. And that it’s OK to be weak, sometimes- but while also knowing you are a part of something bigger and you are still important. We are still pagans at heart and it helps.
My grandfather, I could say he internalized game. He was sharply dressed, wore gold jewelry, stood like a man. A far cry from the fuzzy boys.
It is true: the education in Game (a daft word, but what can you do?) is merely an attempt to bring a man to what he was supposed to be to begin with, and which had been drummed out of him by supposedly well-meaning recent society. As with anything else, there are good schools and bad ones, and it’s very much like comparing business mentors who can be ethical, Machiavellian, or any of the range between.
The music analogy is a good one. We have many examples of people who have gone far beyond the Guitar For Dummies level, so there is no danger of believing one’s self an expert after that mere introduction. With necessarily less public arts, however, the danger is present and the ability to judge expertise not as easy as popping in a CD for an objective listening. The internalization of Game, though, is an exact parallel. As Charlie Parker said, “Master your instrument, master the music, then forget all that and just play.” If you haven’t done the first 2 parts, you can’t really do the 3rd. And we aren’t all musical prodigies.
Hipparchia,
I often wonder how things would change if men still had to go through some Rite of Passage, but in the West, being a mostly Christian nation, I am not sure how this would work. I would leave it to the men to figure out. ;)
I really like the music analogy. All men cannot be musical prodigies but they can learn to play and learn to play well.
Stingray, great post. Your definition of “Man” is so very, very close to how I see this as well. They are above Game, around Game, they internalize Game so they don’t need Game any more, just like Rollo has done. Self confidence, accountability, physical and mental strength are the foundations to Man. There is no Alpha or Beta in his mind since he is who he is, finding the balance through accident, trial and error or tests of himself.
This is so true of the Red Pill once you’ve taken it. Everything the opposite gender does seems amusing to you…
I´ve noticed this too. A beneficial side effect
Great post! And yes, I don’t think that men fully realize the power of strong masculinity on a woman. I’m inclined to agree with Matt about a certain gynophobia toward marriage. There is a big difference between blue pill marriage and red pill marriage. Most women are not going to frivilously divorce a man who is centered in his masculine power. Money can’t compare to it.
Yes there are are road bumps in life, but a man would have to practically self destruct before the wife would consider divorce. Or be a threat to the children. But frivillous divorce? No. If anything, a strong inclination to rationalize during the rough spots.
Except during movies. Darnit, some otherwise fun movies are almost completely unwatchable now. ;)
MarriedDad,
Thank you.
Exactly. And not only does who know who he is, but he knows what he wants and he will get it.
“I often wonder how things would change if men still had to go through some Rite of Passage, but in the West, being a mostly Christian nation, I am not sure how this would work. I would leave it to the men to figure out. ”
As I`ve mentioned before:
Iron John: A Book About Men
And also this:
King, Warrior, Magician, Lover: Rediscovering the Archetypes of the Mature Masculine
@Hipparchia.
I liked reading your comments.
The requirement: “And not only does who know who he is, but he knows what he wants and he will get it.”
The fantasy: He springs into existence fully formed in this, like Athena from the head of Zeus. After all, if it isn’t automatic it isn’t authentic, is it?
The reality: These things are learned. If you’re lucky, you learn it almost automatically from your upbringing, but most do not. Leadership is, famously, a learnable skill. The others ride close by.
I don’t understand this. I have seen it said that many women expect this fully formed automatic uber man (I have no idea how to get the umlaut over the “u”) to magically appear. Where does this idea come from that he should just be? Watching men form is . . . astounding.
I feel like the rock of masculinity should be the perfect place for me to lay back and bask in the sun (with sunscreen, of course) :)
I don’t get it either, but Badger once referred to it as making sausage. She might really like sausage, but perhaps it’s better if she isn’t in the factory watching it get made.
I’ve often wondered if it is the female equivallent of the newspaper. Some men have claimed that if a woman has ever had a one night stand or been involved with alphas, that they’ve sold their newspaper cheaply, while expecting a future husband to pay full price. The idea is that if a man has even once paid a discounted price for the newspaper then the woman should never expect another man to pay full price. Especially a red pill man.
Perhaps these women feel that if a man sold his newspaper at beta prices, he’s not allowed to demand alpha prices later on?
I don’t know. I might be reaching.
Occasionally, yes. But never attempt to block the sun!
That sounds like it could be right. In her mind she is worth more so only the poofed into existence alpha will do? I think it’s crazy. Seeing the potential and then seeing it achieved is amazing. I have a young son and I can already see his potential. While he is growing too fast, I can’t wait to see the man he turns into. (though I guess I am biased as a mother ;) )
LOL Stingray, I am but a wee lass incapable of blocking out the sun :) hahahaha
Kate,
Exactly. :)
By the way, you are hysterical! But maybe we do share a cycle. Yikes!
I with you on that Stingray. Seeing the potential and seeing it achieved is amazing.
Stingray,
Thanks I appreciate the kind gesture
I really liked this post. There’s something really powerful that happens when a man embraces his masculinity, leads, and protects the women around him.
Being like this allows me to be an immoral humanitarian..to make the world a better place
Well, we don’t exactly do pagan rites of passage, but in my family, we just agree on things that are the task of males or females. What one gender does is not exactly taboo for the other gender, but my grandmother took great pains explaining that I was a girl and it would be quite daft, un-stylish and generally bad form to do some of the boy stuff. Not that I could not do it, but I better not even think of it. Needless to say, I learned it all, but I never flaunt it around males.
At the same time, Grandma was keen on making my brother kill a chicken to prove his masculinity. Now, my brother is a vegetarian and would never do it, so he had some adventures in mountain climbing and this made him more manly.
So we had all those tricks to create a difference. If a male is present, the male drives the car, although we can all drive. Only guys pour out the alcohol. As for women, it’s the Law to never let a guy see you making yourself pretty, plus never involve men in selecting textiles for the home. Men and curtains don’t mix.
So yes, a leader is made, step by step. Even women can be leaders. The difference is, I can be a leader, but I don’t desperately need to be one. A male, however, unless he realizes that power, will be unhappy. So we take care of the boys and the men, and we like that they take on the leadership. As for the women in my family, we do exciting stuff, but we all have that healthy feminine paranoia that everything will come to ruin without the proper home textiles, the right way to make stuffed bell peppers and not making a soup and a salad, plus other minor laws, the breaking of which will bring the Zombie Apocalypse.
And despite all this, I’ve also experienced personally a piece of male Alpha personality. I have a brown belt in Aikido and sometimes I had the luck to be at the head of practice, being the highest-ranking. It’s a sweet place, but I learned it requires practice, a buildup of a certain spiritual energy, a certain radiance so I could stand before men twice my weight and not appear ridiculous. But I think in the end it’s a skill that is just human and transcends gender, this inner power. It looks like masculinity initially, but it’s something else.
Hipparchia,
Your upbringing sounds wonderful. You and I sound like very similar people.
Yes, women can be leaders and excellent ones. I just don’t think they can lead in a masculine way, as you said. That strength is not masculinity or the men would instinctually try to tear you down. It comes from someplace else.
“that these women not only love, but willingly dote, serve and submit to their husbands and are extraordinarily happy to do it.”
Somewhat off topic, but how does a woman know she’s submitting? I love/dote/serve, and many people defined this as submitting but not sure it means submitting (everyone seems to have their own definition of it). I guess I don’t feel very submissive (but that doesn’t say much, as the definition of it is littered by feminist understanding), but I act caring. What is submitting in your definition, Stingray?
Stingray and Just Visiting,
Your newspaper analogy doesn’t work for the male values. This is, in large part, because the value of a male is something that he creates over time; where as the value of a female is largely based on something she receives at birth. There are exceptions to this – women that can learn things or get in better shape. Males that can be born a natural alpha or with good looks – but the largest factors of attraction are found in those rules.
@ Wudang
Why do you suggest those two books? Reading Iliad and Odyssey now; might consider them afterwards.
Stingray, I don’t understand it either, but it’s in everything from preparing for a date to building a life to Just Getting It. For the first, consider: A man half-dressed looks silly; a woman half-dressed is nearly fetishized. For the last, note that in every BDSM fantasy (male top), while it may include her “training”, he starts off experienced, uncannily knowledgeable, at times godlike. Never seen a “making of a dom” story in any format or medium (though I’d pay for a copy gladly). I agree that seeing someone develop and grow is marvelous, and understand that a woman watching her man do so has to be a fine thing for her; but knowing *how* he grows, what he read, who he counseled with, his uncertainties, these things are manifestly, palpably unwanted. Been there, made the mistakes, carry the scars, learning to do better.
Have a look at Castiglione’s The Book of the Courtier and the concept of sprezzatura for what a man must do and be, if he wants to stay above these sorts of problems.
I don’t know, Leap, I tend to think more the way Athol does, that a woman’s SMV can be bumped up or down a significant distance by little more than altering appearance and attitude. Our own is slowly worked toward (or degenerated, for the other direction) over time, and dressing up is a minor bump by comparison. Still, now that I think about it… it’s something I simply don’t have time for today, as a major project is approaching like a freight engine. In short, YMMV. Sad excuse for an answer, I know. I’ll get to it eventually.
This post is really good. You helped me with a few questions I’ve pondered often recently and piece thoughts I’ve struggled to put together. Thank you. Please keep them coming like this; they provoke much reflection.
Emma,
From the Oxford Submission: 1 the action of accepting or yielding to a superior force or to the will or authority of another person.
In my marriage that means that Maritus has the last say. He is the final decision maker. There are times he makes a decision that I might not agree with or like, but I accept it (mostly graciously. Sometimes I fail) and follow it. Now, where the feminist have a conniption is in the fact that, at face value, this sounds like I am being lead like a bull by the nose. That’s simply not true. I am not a slave and Maritus respects my opinion. He mostly always comes to me for it and takes it into consideration. Most of the time we are on the same page, but not always. On those few occasions that he doesn’t come to me, I know that he either simply didn’t need my opinion or had my best interest at heart in not asking for it. I accept that as well and am happy for it.
It also means that I always try to put him first and not in that slave way either (I know you know this already, I am just trying to be clear for everyone). In the morning, he needs to get out the door for work. I get up and shower earlier so I can make his breakfast first. He sits at the head of the table. When he’s exhausted after a long day I ask him if there is anything he needs before I go relax, so her relaxes first. Things like that.
Does this make sense? I ask because I am in an allergy fog and it’s hard to think.
John,
Yes. That makes sense. That a woman would not want to know all the gritty details. I think a woman would rather sit back and watch the process as a whole, see that he is changing but not want to know the the how of it. And, as you said, too many women simply expect the final product fully formed.
I think the details are somehow scary for women as we want our men to be stronger. Knowing the details hides the strength somehow.
Thank you, Jacquie. I will do my best.
Sorry but it does sound like another man-up article.
“The man should be like a rock so the wife stays happy doesn’t take him to court” No thanks.
Dillon,
There is no should above except to say that men do this for themselves. The rest is simply the effects of masculinity on a woman. The choice, as always, is yours to make.
Matt,
I’ve been thinking more about this and I don’t have an answer. It might have something to do with women’s indirect power, but I also wonder if it has a lot to do with men’s own hierarchy. Getting a beautiful woman increases a man’s status in many circles, does it not? In the same vein, getting rejected by a beautiful woman would decrease his status? Women, somewhere, know this and some use it to their advantage in getting men to leave them alone. Not only does it give the woman power over the man, it diminishes him ever further in other men’s eyes. It’s a powerful tool.
A man that does not allow her to play this game, who sees it for what it is and turns it back on her, is a man to be reckoned with and admired.
“A man half-dressed looks silly; a woman half-dressed is nearly fetishized.”
Nah, a man can be half dressed and look good. A pair of well fitting jeans and a white v-neck that also fits will get many a lady to look. The trick is that the clothes, man, and manner of the man all have to be masculine. Being half dressed has to look like a choice, a natural setting.
This is separate from a woman being half dressed because she’s either doing it seductively or is a VICTIM of circumstance and thus VULNERABLE. Which is a very alluring thing that to a man because it is feminine and triggers all of our protective switches. There are very few ways for a woman to be half dressed and NOT look good. There are very many ways for a man to not look good.
And John, I agree that a woman can bump up her SMV with those types of things temporarily. I was alluding to the fact that a large part of a woman’s SMV revolves around her genetics that she’s given at birth. That she needs to take care of those and not let her value be spent needlessly by becoming out of shape or slutting around. Because while she can add points based on her clothes and make-up, over time she’ll get to a lower and lower number no matter how much energy or money she uses. Meanwhile men start low, have very small bumps for short term, but a larger potential for long term.
Ok, having the final say makes the man the dominant partner, got it :) Thanks for the answer, this sounds a bit more like what I imagined submitting to be, not just the serving/caring behavior on its own.
There is no should above except to say that men do this for themselves. The rest is simply the effects of masculinity on a woman. The choice, as always, is yours to make.
Yes of course it is. My choice is to pump and dump and not being “a rock” is working out just fine, thank you.
@ Dillon,
If I may interject…
I think Stingray is saying that a sensible woman would never DEMAND that a man be a ‘rock’ for her or anyone else.
But if he is anyway, and she notices this, she appreciates it highly.
I suppose there is nothing wrong with ‘pumping and dumping’ unworthy women, if that’s OK with you.
But when men are intrinsically strong and masculine (and this varies according to taste), a woman for whom that variety of masculinity appeals, feels it.
And if she too is a worthy woman, then both are happy.
I think that’s what she is saying.
Correct me if I am way off mark, Stingray.
You’ve got it, Spacetraveller. I’m merely attempting to describe what masculinity does to a woman. A man should never attempt to man up for a woman. It immediately puts her up on a pedestal where she very much does not wish to be. If he wishes to work towards being more masculine it is something he should do for himself and for his goals. What other people think is irrelevant.
“I suppose there is nothing wrong with ‘pumping and dumping’ unworthy women, if that’s OK with you”
I’m wondering how its okay to do damage to oneself or another.
@ GeishaKate,
Well, the answer is in the phrase ‘if that’s OK with you’.
Dillon is free to make his own choices in life. And he has. I merely try to present Stingray’s argument to him in a slightly different way. Not that I expect it to change his way of going about things.
I chose my words carefully here, lol.
Stingray,
Thanks for confirming. It helps me too, to understand better what you say in this post, by summarising it in my own words.
I understand you, Spacetravellor. I just find it generally mystifying that people suppose actions have no affect on themselves.
“I just find it generally mystifying that people suppose actions have no affect on themselves.”
I’m pretty sure most men you run into in the ‘Sphere have a higher awareness of this than most. Whether they think the affect is good or bad probably varies. But if they’re pursuing such a life style, I’m sure most have decided that such is more rewarding than the married life.
sorry i’m late to the party. but i’ll summarize this post with a simple sentence. it’s been said before, but i’ll share it again-
“the masculine attract’s the feminine”- ThePrivateMan.
i don’t care WHY i am so enamored with femininity, all i know is i’m a sucker for a girly girl. it’s too primal and natural to try and rationalize.
women that frown and scowl on masculinity in men are women that don’t deserve reproductive abilities.
kisses pookums.
eek! I meant “effect.”
Danny,
Thank you, Danny. Men have a way of saying things so succinctly. It’s awesome.
Women that frown and scowl on masculinity are afraid, I think. Relinquishing control can be very . . . difficult and it seems so counterintuitive to “empowerment”. The front that is put up seems to be more of a shield to their ability to control.
Kate,
Heh. At least you know the difference between the two. That is one thing I can NEVER remember and have to look up every time I write it. One can tell when I didn’t have time to look because I usually use it wrong. My grammar is atrocious.
I am terrible, myself. My pronoun agreement is awful in many a post. Okay, free lesson to remind us all (including myself) of some essential differences:
effect= noun
affect= verb
compliment= saying something nice
complement= a counterpart, match (think complete)
”
…
Getting a beautiful woman increases a man’s status in many circles, does it not? In the same vein, getting rejected by a beautiful woman would decrease his status? Women, somewhere, know this and some use it to their advantage in getting men to leave them alone. Not only does it give the woman power over the man, it diminishes him ever further in other men’s eyes. It’s a powerful tool.
A man that does not allow her to play this game, who sees it for what it is and turns it back on her, is a man to be reckoned with and admired.
“
A man that let’s himself be defined by the woman he is with is no man at all.
She can bring honor to him or shame him by her behavior if she is married to him or if she is her father. But for a woman to merely accept or reject a man, as in saying yes or no to a marriage proposal, reflects nothing on a man that knows his own worth. To quote Vox, “…there’s always another girl on the girl tree.”
I agree, but we are talking about men who are somehow intimidated by women here. Where does the intimidation come from? The men who are intimidated appear to far outweigh those who are not.
”
Stingray said:
October 15, 2012 at 2:04 PM
I agree, but we are talking about men who are somehow intimidated by women here. Where does the intimidation come from? The men who are intimidated appear to far outweigh those who are not.”
That’s called oneitis.
Funny thing though, I did a word search on this web page for the word intimidate. Didn’t find another example of it. You are intimating that this is what the preceding conversation was all about. Considering that the previous conversation makes no mention of it why are you bringing it up here?
I see your confusion, Athor. I didn’t intend to imply that all of the the preceding conversation was about intimidation at all. It was only something that Matt King brought up above and that I was responding to. When I said “we” I only meant Matt and I. I assumed you had read his comment as well.
Funny you should mention. I’ve long known that an absurd number of men are intimidated by women – all women, practically speaking. It’s the prevailing and enticing feminine mystique, being raised in a feminist (misandrist) world, and a more or less natural fear of the desired Other’s power over one’s ego, permeated with a touch of sexual privation. This isn’t news to me, and I’ve experienced it from the inside.
What is news is a growing awareness that women have much the same happening to/within themselves. By way of easy example, have a look at any episode of Chopped (Food Network, running daily at least) and listen to the introductory statements by the female contestants. An inferiority complex will make itself known in at least 1 of the women. It’s worth noting that anyone leading their motivations with Grrl Power!!1! is leading with their chin, and will be knocked out forthwith. Fear (which that kind of nonsense is, harkening to Hamlet’s Mother’s observation that the lady protests too much) is not a component of victory. Once noticed, I have begun to see it all over.
Intimidation runs both ways, it seems. It’s almost sweet, or would be if it didn’t cludge up the works so badly.
How to teach boys to be men. At age 12 they are to be separated from their mothers to be initiated into a community of men after having gone through the initiation ritual they are given new names and recognised as men.
Most important is separation from the feminine which in the boy’s case is their mother that way they could from the freedom of the influence of femininity develop their masculinity.
A thousand times, yes. Men and masculinity are intimidating. Add to that the fact that women seek out masculinity so they can submit to it and confusion abounds, for men and women. We want to submit to it, while at the same time, we seek that exact same power to use on others. It absolutely cannot be squared. Instead of teaching women that we need to choose one and accept and be happy with the choice we have made, society tries to teach women that they can somehow have both! It’s impossible.
Infowarrior,
Argh! The cognitive dissonance!! IT BURNS!! ;)
BZZZT GeishaKate. I say:
affect = noun
effect = verb
Suck on that, pedant.
You first :) dictionary.com (like Shakira’s hips) don’t lie!
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/affect?s=t
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/effect?s=t
Good one, King. I almost soiled my armor!
You’re both right. From Grammar Girl
Kate, time for new armor? ;)
King is such a rule-breaker. :)
I do have new armor, Stingray! New fall clothes purchased and the pants ban is till mostly in effect!
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I actually am a pagan, and I am giving my boys a pagan rite-of-passage at 13. They will be presented with a sword, symbolizing their duty to defend the family, a cup symbolizing their obligation to respect and honor their ancestors, a dish symbolizing their dedication to hospitality toward their fellow man, and a staff symbolizing the passion they should bear on their journey through life.
In my grand-dad’s day, they just took you to a hooker and got you laid.
Ian,
Welcome.
I have a question . . . Will you present them with some difficult task they must complete? I don’t know much about Rites of Passage but a hard and somewhat dangerous task seemed to be part of most.
While as an adult, I understand your Gran-dad’s way, as a mother I cringe at reading that. I want no part of the talk that my husband will have with our son when it comes to girls and I think it best for everyone that way.
Yes, there will be a series of tests and trials and ordeals. Nothing they can’t handle, but certain to test their intelligence, dedication, knowledge of our religion, determination, and wisdom. And there might be a pancake eating contest or something, I’m still working it out.
I’m dealing with a hyper-intelligent 12 year old boy who is hitting puberty with a vengeance. I’m teaching him Game ala Married Man Sex Life, albeit a very adolescent version. He’s geeky enough that he’ll need all the help he can get. It does put me in an awkward position, for example, when he asks about pornography and such. I’ve been steering him toward the kinds of 1940s era pin-ups I use on my blog, rather than anything explicit. The process of becoming a man isn’t over in one day, it takes patient taps of the hammer on the blade over and over until it’s tempered properly.
Are you yanking my chain? I can’t tell . . .
That’s a really good idea. When he’s old enough some of the old Playboy type magazines would be good, too (not that you need my thoughts on this matter). In my opinion, those women exude a different kind of sexiness than the pinups of today. There is more mystery to them maybe? I don’t know, but (for a woman) there is something about those pictures that is very stunning.
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