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One of things I have really enjoyed and admired about reading the different blogs is watching people learn and grow or reading their stories about how much learning these truths has changed their lives. This is a process that usually takes some time and always a lot of deep introspection. This is required regardless of one’s sex. As Keoni Galt noted in his post Gaming the Curst of Eve there has been a marked increase in the number of red pill women’s blogs (which was predicted by Rollo Tomassi quite some time ago).
This term, red pill women, seems to have sparked some anger in a small, yet vocal, part of the commenters. Now, I understand the process that one goes through in learning about the red pill and I have little problem with it. Anger is part of it. Most move on in this process and some just don’t. Some complete it and can only see the ugly lies. This is to be expected.
Having said that, there is something that needs to be understood. We are red pill women, in all of our hypergamous, solipsistic, hamster spinning femaleness. We aren’t men. The red pill that we swallow is the same color but it is a different flavor (it’s still bitter, but different just the same). While the base ingredients are the same the starting place and the effects are quite different. Most women start out as some varying degree of feminist. We fitness test, we push against our husbands leadership or usurp it altogether. We nag, expect fried ice and are unhappy when our husbands try to give it. If our husbands know better, we are utterly confused at why things are happening the way they are. We say we want the pedestal only to utterly hate it when placed there. The list goes on and on. It what we were taught. Our bitter pill throws back in our faces how completely unreasonable, rude, irrational and sometimes how downright stupid we were behaving. For some, it is entirely too late to change anything. Many will never accept. Some of us were lucky enough to find the pill and do something about all of this. Are we perfect now? No, but we try and we will continue to do so.
The “red-pill” woman takes frequent moments to step back and observe all that her husband does for her and their family, and she appreciates it and expresses it to him with her words and her actions. But even the best of them will admit that doing so is a constant struggle to avoid taking their husbands for granted.
It is a constant struggle. We have to make it part of who we are much like the blue pill man must “fake it till he makes it”. Even when it becomes part of who we are, we will still fail from time to time. We will still take our men for granted without vigilance.
From Keoni’s piece:
Now I know better. I know where this complaint is coming from, and I know what it will lead up to if I don’t do something about it. Aside from my greater understanding of the underlying dynamics, I’ve found I actually have a true passion for cooking. I don’t need her appreciation or approval to keep practicing the culinary arts…though I do have to say, she still does express appreciation from time to time. But most of the time, my cooking skills and service are largely taken for granted now.
It is what it is….for the curse of Eve is also expressed in the old maxim: “Familiarity breeds contempt.”
This is our pill. It is not a male one and was never meant to be. We will never inherently understand involuntary celibacy, the desire to pedestalize, or learning how to take back one’s masculinity and learning to lead again. We can’t understand that first brush with true confidence and how the women around you and your wife will respond to that. What we do understand is those women’s response and exactly how that feels. And we know that we like it.
The red pill for women and the red pill for men, just as with everything else masculine and feminine, are very different medicines. Therefore, it’s effect is also very different. This difference, women learning to becomes feminine and men learning to become masculine, is what will attract us and bring us together again.
On the Rock 
Wow, this is a really excellent post. There is definitely a process to taking the red pill.
And yes, whereas I know I should try to tame my solipsism & hypergamy & tests, I’m not going to try to turn myself into a man. As a man my husband also needs to learn how to handle me being a woman.
Ditto to everything TCup said; Excellent post!
I’m always a little mystified at the reaction some people have to this whole thing. The entire idea of “the red pill” is opening one’s eyes to the truth. What one does with it is almost entirely irrelevant to the fact of it, in theory – but in reality, basic decency and being able to live with one’s self requires acting on the new knowledge in order to gain more of it. There are layers of awareness, and someone dozily wandering into a wakeful state won’t be up to the task of, for example, acting congruently with what they see while simultaneously avoiding the trap of dropping too much truth on those still asleep. These things take time, and active self-improvement.
Some just want to go back to sleep, and do. They can’t face what’s really happening to and around them, or they think that everything is a lie and there is no happiness is following truth. This is crap, of course. The truth does set you free, even from a prison you didn’t know you were in. It improves your effectiveness, your happiness, your success in all areas, and best of all, it’s objective. No more of this “my reality” bullshit. There is 1 reality, and its name is reality.
But… just because we wake up to the same truth doesn’t mean we should have the same reaction to it, or even that we can. It makes no sense at all that my new awareness of culture-encouraged solipsism should cause the same reaction a woman has to that same dawning awareness. I have to unplug from the idiotic urge to pedestalize; she has to unplug from the programming that insists on it. She has to become an adult (solipsism is literally the philosophy of infants, as you probably know); I have to take responsibility to guide that growth. It’s for damned sure that the nature of our horror at being deceived by this bizarre societal perversion is going to be different, simply because we found ourselves at different locations within the matrix, and have natural tendencies to different faults. And this is just one of many issues.
I agree!
very good post Dear. and trust me, us red-pill men appreciate you red-pill women.
As Tcup said, this is an excellent post! Thank you for pointing out that there is a difference in our male and female red pill medicine. I have not seen that so clearly stated by anyone else, great job!!!
I see some of the ferocity geared at red pill chicks, and I find it annoying, but like you say, it’s part of the process.
Also, it’s exercising the newfound realization that it’s not necessarily a bad thing to tell a woman exactly what you think. We’ve felt censored our entire lives, so when the muzzle first comes off, watch out.
But in some cases, I think it’s bitterness that’s resulted from a victim mentality. Women have had too much influence over them and they’ve realized how much that’s messed with them, so Woman=Bad. It’s almost like somebody who’s had problems with people from another race so they hate everone in that race.
If they get over it, it’s not a problem, but if they don’t, it will be. It’s not Team Man vs. Team Woman. The proper response to the generalized degredation of men is not the generalized degredation of women, it’s simply the promotion of Man. But that’s hard to see when you’re newly convicted.
Today, generally a divorce is the woman’s fault, and society amplifies that. Also, when it’s a man’s fault, we HEAR about it. However, from time to time it IS actually the man’s fault. Defending some bastard who unfairly screws over his wife doesn’t help the poor schlub who got dumped by his wife for a dumb reason at all.
Thank you, everyone. It’s very appreciated!
Peregrine John,
Nicely put. Like I said, there is a process and much of it is understandable for all the reasons Martel outlined above. A lot of the anger is healthy, a lot of it is not. I tend to think that a lot of the anger sent toward us red pill women will be shrugged off because we know the reason for it. As for those women who do not understand where it is coming from and have never experienced it, for many of them it could very well be a good. A brush with any kind of masculinity, even the budding kind is good. It is when this anger is coming from a place that is not masculine that it can really turn into a bad thing.
The proper response to the generalized degredation of men is not the generalized degredation of women, it’s simply the promotion of Man. But that’s hard to see when you’re newly convicted.
Agreed. With your whole post. The general degradation of women will simply fuel the feminists argument further and add fuel to their fire. Men who are able to move past it, those who are confident and unmovable. Those who are firm and civil or even kind (as in your Deserve) post will change the world. What better is that many will be content and even happy while doing it.
Defending some bastard who unfairly screws over his wife doesn’t help the poor schlub who got dumped by his wife for a dumb reason at all.
I think this will actually hurt the guy who got dumped by his wife, because it further perpetuates the myth that those big bad Man will dump you for a younger and hotter version. So . . . “We must have No-Fault divorce!!!”
“I think this will actually hurt the guy who got dumped by his wife, because it further perpetuates the myth that those big bad Man will dump you for a younger and hotter version. So . . . “We must have No-Fault divorce!!!”
I see an analogy here with certain race-hustlers. When “civil rights” protesters defend the actions of some complete and utter thug, it equates “racial justice” with the defense of barbarism.
Likewise, if we cross the line from defending unfairly accused rapists to defending actual rapists, we’ll make the same impression.
Although there are general societal trends and men are drawing the shorter end of the straw at the moment, from time to time men ARE in the wrong. We’re all individuals. Divorces, rape accusations, sexual harrasments complaints follow certain patterns, but they are each specific instances.
Forgetting that and making it Team Man vs. Team Woman will just drive us into the ground.
This looks good:
https://redpillhypothesis.wordpress.com/
Thanks for the linkage, it’s good to see you riff off my picee with an excellent one of your own.
As I responded to the ladies who dropped comments on that post:
“BTW, ladies, every last one of you that commented here on this thread so far…it’s reading your blogs and your comments these past few years that have got me to recognize the truth of NAWALT.
Some of the most compelling prose ya’all have written deals with your introspection and self-awareness of struggling with your base tendencies. Prior to finding ladies such as yourselves on teh Interwebz, I did not even think ladies like you even existed. lozlzol”
As I have said over at SSM’s, my wife is blue pill and agnostic. She submits to me, only because I’ve taken the red pill and am fully cognizant of the dynamics of our relationship. I can read her like an open book, and like a chess master, I’m usually thinking 3 moves ahead of her. The funny thing is that as I figured these things out and internalized the concept of maintaining a strong masculine frame, she’s become submissive and I don’t think she’s even conscious of it. She’s just reacting in a feminine manner to my conscious and deliberate focus on masculine dominance.
Had I not discovered this thing called game, I am utterly certain we would have divorced by now…as I used to have her up on the pedestal, and she hated being up there.
I’ll say this: redpill women do perform an invaluable service that cannot be duplicated by the men of the sphere.
None of that is to invalidate any of the conclusions reached by the majority of the sphere (including the ladies themselves) that they are not fit to lead.
But that is alright. Our culture fetishizes leadership anyway. Christ was notable not just as a perfect leader, but as a perfect follower of the Father’s will.
Well said. It’s different for us and not as difficult. (It would be more difficult if more Blue Pill women could comprehend the Red Pill and attempt to take it, but we don’t.) I have only two constant battles; one is coping with the pain I feel (yeah, poor me) when I see men suffering, since paying *close* attention to male suffering is relatively new to me. The other is training myself to notice and acknowledge the sacrifices my husband and other men make for me.
My struggles are NOTHING compared to what most men face (usually blindly) throughout their whole lives.
beautifully written Stingray, you have such a peaceful way with words.
Martel,
Well said.
Another service y’all red pill chix provide is that you can be especially good at converting others. Women will respond better for obvious reasons, but you’ll also be better at disarming much of the guilt that keeps guys blue-pilled.
But the other side knows this so beware, any who become prominent will be treated like black Republicans by the leaders of the other side. Traitors to your gender, deserving of more vitriol that Roissy and Roosh combined.
It hasn’t happened yet, but Helen Reynolds is going to get a TON of gruff for her new book “Men on Strike”. But she’s doing what she’s doing because she knows she’s right. I’m grateful to her, SSM, Judgy Bitch, Tempest, Sarah’s Daughter, Stingy, and any others of you who are willing to put your own necks on the line for us (even if some of you still have a hard time grasping the Feminine Imperative).
Keoni,
Thank you.
Prior to finding ladies such as yourselves on teh Interwebz, I did not even think ladies like you even existed.
I get the impression that quite a few men find themselves in this position. It’s sad. What gets me is the plethora of women whom deem themselves intelligent and yet . . . . they will not or cannot see.
I used to have her up on the pedestal, and she hated being up there.
I wonder, I know some men do, but how many realize the depth of hate we are talking about here?
You’re wife is a lucky woman. Your red pill story was one of the ones I was thinking of when I wrote this post. It’s fantastic.
I’ll say this: redpill women do perform an invaluable service that cannot be duplicated by the men of the sphere.
I’ve seen others say this as well. I very much hope we are able to help.
Suz,
Men especially have it difficult on the legal front. The deck is almost completely stacked against them and it’s disgusting. As far as swallowing the pill, I hadn’t given it much thought, but I think it depends just how deeply entrenched one is. I for one would like to see someone like Amanda Marcott or Hugo Schwyzer swallow it. 😉
Sis,
Thank you. It’s not always easy, but I try. 😉
but you’ll also be better at disarming much of the guilt that keeps guys blue-pilled.
I think some guys just feel better about making tough decisions for a woman when another woman tells them that that is what we actually want.
Regarding Helen Reynolds, I expect that as well. I thought many would have a conniption and there faces would rip off when Gabriel Reese advocated submitting. Looking at her husband, I think she had the last laugh.
As for the FI, I think it’s been grasped by all of us now. 🙂
BTW, I like Stingy and thank you. 😀
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“BTW, I like Stingy and thank you.”
I’m glad you like her. Otherwise, it would make much sense for you to do her blog for her.
I’m also glad you like the name “Stingy” because other options would be incredibly difficult to spell. “Stingrayie” would strike people as impossible to pronounce (is that French?), “Stingrayee” seems way too pretentious and people would probably think an accent belongs on one of the “e”s, and “Stingrayy” would be glossed over as a typo.
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Martel,
You could just make up random spelling to suit yourself as well. Do foreign accents and the like. “Steengrrae” or “Schteengray” . . . . Ack! Never mind. My accents are terrible.
“…as I used to have her up on the pedestal, and she hated being up there.”
My husband likes a lot of the red pill sites & actually goes to your site probably daily for your posts & blog roll, but has yet to really take the red pill. He still has me on the pedestal, lol. It can get annoying at times! Ah well, baby steps…
The Fast Car Said :
It is when this anger is coming from a place that is not masculine that it can really turn into a bad thing.
Anger with no release is indeed a very scary thing.
Kudos for another excellent post. Red pill women serve an invaluable service by explaining things we have no concept about, and giving us confirmation that what we think works – actually does. 🙂 This gives us confidence to continue leading the way we have, and work on being even better over time.
My thought is that this all leads eventually back to the notion of “gentleman and ladies,” in a real 19th century sense. Women were sophisticated yet feminine, cherished beauty, proud of their husbands, hated male weakness, constantly aware of the social dynamics at play. Men were masculine, unyielding, held their honor as a matter of life and death, kept their women to high standards. That is where it leads when men and women become each others ideal. The other path leads to male thuggishness and fat, shrill, single moms.
Red pill women provide a great and crucial viewpoint in the ‘sphere’
Anger is understandable but should only be a transition to improvement
Since taking the pill I do not get frustrated with women when they behave badly
It is the blue-pill men that piss me off
I guess the closest thing to a problems I have with red pill chix is the massive contrast between them and the other women I come across.
I read these blogs and see that actual human decency is possible in a human female, and then everybody I meet is this:
http://www.rooshv.com/patricias-smartphone
But I haven’t met everyone in the world yet…
“actual human decency is possible in a human female”
Yes, but it never has been and never will be widespread. Even back in more ‘patriarchal’ times the vast majority of women had the tendency to behave inconsiderately, if not outright cruelly/immorally, when not kept on a tight (masculine) leash. On the other hand, I’ve no doubt that a good number of women have the capacity to be truly good if only they have the opportunity to rest in a strong masculine presence.
Until there are more red-pill men around, and modern women have an opportunity to learn that sweet submission to a masculine man and learn to rest in their femininity, you will see few women different from Roosh’s (sadly all too true) stereotype.
Also, most of us seem to be strong introverts so we’re not nearly as easy to meet as your average attention whore.
I realise that many, if not most, men in the manosphere have met only those types of women in RL and have never had a living example of red-pill (i.e. proper) womanhood, so they can’t really be faulted for thinking that NAWALT cases are impossible. At the same time, it can seem kind of annoying and counterproductive when they can’t, even with time, get over their negativity. The worst thing about it is that I fear the concept can become so entrenched in their minds that even if they do one day happen to meet a truly quality woman, they wont have the capacity to realise it and will pass on her.
@ Phaedre: Good points. The first full paragraph reminded me of this post (again by Roosh, who’s turning out to be quite the social commentator):
http://www.rooshv.com/the-true-nature-of-women
It’s just a bit deterministic for my taste, but it makes a lot of sense.
Yes, I’ve been enjoying his social commentary lately.
I do find it odd that he would have (had?) any expectation or hope of meeting a LTR-worthy woman in a night-club. I guess it’s just that he was really only looking to get laid and hoped (if only to a small, mostly subconscious degree) that at least one of them would actually turn out to be a good companion.
I know this has been discussed in other areas of the sphere, but where *should* a guy look for a quality woman? Sure, considering the state of our society it’s mostly based on luck, and yet there has to be a greater probability in some places than others.
The other thing is that some women have a great potential for being highly feminine and submissive, but that potential is unrealised at the point of meeting (I think this was case for most of us red-pill women here). For a red-pill man it might take little work to forge an excellent and worthwhile relationship with such a woman, but how to identify initially that she is one such woman?
Phedre: Part of the club thing is simply looks. There’s nowhere else where you’ll find as many attractive women in the same place.
A few years back, although in clubs there were more, bars and other more laid-back nightspots had a few hotties as well. Now, hardly ever. I think as the FI has taken over more of our mentality, it’s amplified female conformity, so you’re less likely to find one who looks good that bucks any trends. Clubs are the place to be seen, so that’s where they all go at night.
I’ve also noticed that everybody flocks to the “it” places with more fervor than before. There are places that you have to wait an hour to get into, and everywhere else is dead.
In a club, you can try and try and try again. In the local Irish Pub, if you don’t make it with the cocktail waitress, you’re SOL.
So that leaves day options, bookstores, etc., or maybe clubs (political groups, cooking class, whatever else), but none of these have much concentration (maybe 1 or 2 at a spot if you’re lucky). I’d like to consider church to be a good option, but I find that EVERY female I’ve met at one who’s a 7 or better has at least two kids.
I’m a weirdo who cares about looks as much as the next guy, but the ability to have at least one original thought every month or so matters to me. But American women have gone so far downhill, and looks seem to make them stupid more than they ever have before.
Stereotyping, I know, but…
I hate the “red pill” label. It’s a dorky reference to a sci-fi movie that will never, ever gain widespread currency.
Feminism didn’t achieve cultural hegemony and then totalitarian dominance by adopting twee jargon. It redefined terms wholesale. This was a gradual process, yes, but all manner of seemingly impossible reforms can be made real with steady purpose through three or four generations. We must think and act more strategically.
After all, we are attempting to recover a meaning more than we are trying to invent one. “Red Pill” women is like “gay” marriage. They are lexical games (which do indeed work) for the purpose of political positioning. But these are superficial victories.
The true victory will be to call a “red pill” woman simply … woman. Her “red pill” tendencies as … feminine. In the end how hard can the transformation be? We aren’t fabricating a fiction. We are simply getting back to the truth.
Take Sarah Palin. Feminists say, “Her greatest hypocrisy is in her pretense that she is a woman.” Or “Real Men Wear Pink.” This is how you win the culture. This is how you sustain lies. How much easier that we do not have to lie.
Do not conform to them: Frame the enemy to your will. Do not characterize them as anything but “feminist” or “hater.” Reserve the term “woman” and “man” for our ideal models to strive for. Alpha male = man. Alphatude = manliness. Red Pill Woman = woman. Feminist = ugly, fat, loud failure with the coincidence of female-like secondary sexual characteristics. Beta male = SWPL, liberal, pussy, hipster, wimp, faggot, metrosexual. Re-appropriate terms like “misogyny”: who hates women qua women more than those who would uglify her, more than those who would eradicate femininity and replace it with mutant manliness? Feminism is self-hatred.
And somewhere in this great winnowing barn we might one day revive the glory of “gentleman” and “lady.” These are terms that incorporate the idea that manliness and femininity is a lifelong, ongoing project which requires the support of institutions, culture, custom, and community, always one step from slipping into savagery. Men and women are made, not born.
But we cannot redeploy old words too soon — the enemy’s linguistic subversion is so complete that such models have been rendered risible on their face. It’s a long way back, but it begins by rejecting their subversive taxonomy completely and every derivative thereof.
Our culture fashions us with democratic prejudices but we must revivify our natural aristocratic urges. Feminism isn’t about fairness or equality. It is a simple misunderstanding about class. Either you made it through finishing school or you didn’t. Either you burp at the table or you don’t. Either you’re obese and embarrassed to leave the house, or you put on sweatpants and don’t give a damn. Either your condition has been “gentled,” or you are a pleb with no social graces.
Look down your noses at human trash. “No one is so poor that he cannot pick up his yard” (P.J. O’Rourke). The poorest farmers and toilers would still dress their Sunday best to go to church. It was not a matter of wealth. It was a matter of what they wanted to be.
Feminism is classlessness. It seeks freedom in license. They undress their porcine bodies and write “SLUT” on them and go march in public. They present themselves as purposefully unattractive to make a political statement. Just as no person is so poor that he must wear sweatpants to Sunday mass, no woman is so ugly that some attention to her appearance won’t improve her femininity. But the entire point of feminism is to reject femininity through deliberate ugliness, and force the culture to accept it.
In our bizarro world, “Sex and the City” is “classy”: Jimmy Choos and Manolo Blahniks define high style, rather than a reputation for chastity, much less the absence of STIs. White trash has invaded the commanding heights of culture. It’s as simple as that.
Time to be snobby. We have earned it by our refinement and restraint.
Matt
Martel: One hardship I will readily concede to men is that they have to wait for a really good woman, most likely because she is…still growing up. You strike me as a younger man. If your future wife is ten years younger, what is she doing? Possibly still attending high school. The only difference between a good woman and one who goes astray is someone watching over her. People used to look for marriage partners through family and community connections so you had some assurance of their “quality.” People have moved away from that in rebellion of marrying people their parents pick out for them, but I think it’ll start making a return after the disaster people choosing for themselves has been.
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Kate: You raise a good point, people did tend to meet their future spouse through a network based on family or community. Now that networking is all but gone. I am writing a series on finding a spouse for Christians, and the next part in the series addresses the subject of networking.
Hi donalgraeme 🙂 I’m sure what I wrote above and this comment aren’t exactly revolutionary, but there had been a breakdown in our communities. I go to playgrounds and there are hardly ever any children there. When I was little, I lived at our local playground. I’d be out there for hours with my sister till we were called in for dinner. Now you wouldn’t leave a child alone in a park.
A couple years ago, for our state writing test, the students were asked to write about a problem in their neighborhood. The test results were not good. When we looked into why, it turned out the kids had been confused by the word “neighborhood” (if you can believe that)!
I wonder if Facebook has brought back networking. I notice that now that my daughter is in kindergarten she is building a broader social network. She actually gets phone calls from her friends! lol Your article sounds like it will be very interesting. At least with the rise of Christian blogs, there is a chance people will meet through them 🙂
“At least with the rise of Christian blogs, there is a chance people will meet through them”
Yes, that is my hope. If not for myself, that for others. Nightskyradio and Allamagoosa met through them, so it isn’t a vain hope. You are correct about your perception of the breakdown of communities, political scientists have been observing that breakdown for decades now. As if Blue Pill thinking was bad enough.
The sphere is a community in its own right and I’m sure you’ll see more match ups due to the fact that its a simulation of “social circle game.” You get to see how a person interacts with others, who they agree/disagree with, their sense of humor, etc. It in an arena that can really allow for intimate connections as we share and discuss very personal stories and ideas. Of course, sometimes these intimate connections can’t always bear fruit in a practical sense. There may be an age mismatch or a distance issue. I find it enduringly sweet that those two have met though I don’t know either of them. I hope they will be very, very happy together.
Now, donalgraeme, what are you looking for in a woman so we can all be on the lookout when she appears 🙂
“Now, donalgraeme, what are you looking for in a woman so we can all be on the lookout when she appears :)”
Well, since you asked for it…:
A chaste and devout Catholic woman aged 18-25, American citizenship or green card preferred.
Everybody hear that? Let the search begin! First one to find her wins a fifty dollar finder’s fee 😉
All of men who have been in the sphere for a while definitely appreciate the red pill women here. Unfortunately most women exposed to you fine ladies freak the f**k out when they find your sites. Trust me on this, my latest LTR ended just for this reason. Meh, good riddance.
Well said, Matthew. (You do drive me around the bend when you veer into the cornrows now and then, but on this one I have to hand it to you: you’re right.) I’ve been arguing this point in other venues for a while now, that it is imperative that we use both our methods of argument (facts, truth, facing the obviously real) and theirs (shame, ridicule, and all manner of r-selected emotional appeals). The fact, as you said, that we’re representing truth instead of lies should make it all the more powerful.
Preach it, brother.
I am not “veer[ing] into the cornrows.” I am pioneering new trails.
I am making straight the paths.
“What then? Are you Elijah?”
He said, “I am not.”
“Are you the prophet?”
And he answered, “No.”
They said to him then, “Who are you? Let us have an answer for those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?”
He said, “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make straight the way of the Lord….'”
— John 1:21-23
For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said,
The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
Prepare the way of the Lord,
Make his paths straight.
— Matt 3:3
Matt
Dude, you crack me up. Never change. Except your socks, of course.
Though now you’re not so much preaching to the choir as to the crazy Essene. (My name, it is no accident.)
I apologize to everyone for the lack of comments. Maritus took Friday off and we had a nice, long weekend. I read all the comments but otherwise, spent the weekend with the family.
One quick thing, in reply to Matt and Peregrine John,
“Red Pill” women is like “gay” marriage. They are lexical games (which do indeed work) for the purpose of political positioning. But these are superficial victories.
The true victory will be to call a “red pill” woman simply … woman. Her “red pill” tendencies as … feminine.
I agree with this. However, we are at the beginning of this journey and I think the first step in bringing back these words is to make sure everyone here is on the same page. The only way we can do that is to differentiate between females and males today and ideal women and men. I think starting with the term Red Pill, while tedious (as is manosphere and alpha and beta) it is the stepping point in taking back these definitions. Anyone who has been reading these blogs long enough is square on the definitions, but with the influx of newbies, they are still fairly necessary. I try to veer away from the terms fairly often and make it known which group I am talking about with capitals, i.e. Man and Woman. Somehow, with the rarity of this group, the capital seems appropriate. I try to stick to feminine and masculine as much as possible as well because the words have meanings that are very specific (and these words are far more eloquent, as far as I am concerned).
In short, I agree, but in some instance still see putting the tag red-pill in there. I think it will fade, but if we rush it, these terms will be snatched back. We must make these terms almost coveted. Women and men must want these terms applied to them before we really have a major victory and we are on our way. Strong Men will inspire woman and men to want to be referred to as Feminine and Masculine. We’ll get them back because you men will lead us there. Men want to be respected by you and women will want to be around you. I hope we women are able to help in this process.
By the way, I looked up the Latin of Return of Kings (on Google translate so I have no idea how accurate it is) and it’s Revertere Regum.
I’m torn on the “red pill” term. I recognize the need to control the language, and how successful the left has been at it (i.e. their redefining speech they don’t like as a form of assault), but there are also linguistic intangible that are difficult to control.
“Taking the Red Pill” mirrors the sensation many of us have when one day we see things as they really are. But there are complications.
Rollo once said that all women are Red Pill. In the sense that all women know what they find attractive in men he’s right (women have the instinctual knowledge that those new to the manosphere are just beginning to grasp). Or is he? How many women think they want a nice guy only to boink random Lacrosse players whenever they feel horny. If you watch what they do and don’t listen to what they say, they’re red pill, if you believe what they say (and from time to time women can delude themselves), they’re horribly blue.
But that’s when “Red Pill” is used just to describe the realities of the feminine sex drive. Could you use it for the male sex drive (women who think guys want high-powered executives being blue pill)? Or other areas of life? Economics? Foreign policy? After all, could you describe the idea that we can create wealth by creating debt as deluded in the same way most guys were deluded into thinking that chick-flick knowledge would turn women on?
Frankly, it’s a mess.
On the other hand, it can be incredibly useful. Even those of us who don’t like the term usually understand what people mean by it.
So perhaps a red pill woman is one who understands her own innate nature. In which case Rollo would be wrong about all women being red pill. Usually.
We need better terms and we need to define them better. Yet language is organic and it will be hard for us to redefine terms wholesale like the feminists did until we agree among ourselves a bit more.
Linguistic precision and precise thought have a symbiotic relationship, each improves the other. However, when there’s debate of what terms mean what, sometimes the only way to agree is when there’s an authority to which the majority of us will defer when it comes to terms and their definitions.
And I don’t see any single figure with such authority, yet. But that may happen soon.
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I would define a red pill woman as a woman who “gets it,” whether she knows it or not. The red pill woman is the one who exhibits all the trais of the ideal woman whether she reads the Manosphere or not.
Maybe. I doubt there’s a single point (or triumvirate, even) of control/authority that allowed for lefty lunacy to subvert the language, but rather a set of habits and memes that coalesced into the house of cards that we have to deal with. I agree entirely that we’re going to need to reclaim the entire language in order to get society out of its death spiral (not to get too hyperbolic about it), but also that our own set of terms is going to have to be in use for some time. In that, we can see the group consensus at work. The metaphor of the red pill is simply that of seeing things for what they are, and if we can avoid some sort of lexical “mission creep” from worming its way in, as it’s already tried, then the metaphor can continue to serve.
In this we have an advantage similar to the one I mentioned above: Instead of setting a straw man and letting everyone push it further with ever more outrageous ornamentation, as our ideological opponents do, we have something, an essential definition, that we can correct the terms with when they try to stray. Indeed, we should, and diligently. What does the red pill refer to? Reality. Not one aspect of it, but all of it: social, economic, scientific, everything. They’re all of a piece, anyway. Might as well act like it, and one effect of seeing reality is that it suddenly stops looking like disparate subjects in the first place.
Martel,
Regarding women knowing what we want. Eh, kinda yes and kinda no (got it?!) We know that we find that guy over there, the really confident one who is smiling, standing tall, and doing his own thing really attractive, but ask us why. Most of us can’t tell you coherently other than to say he is handsome and confident (in reality, he may be handsome or just so so. Confidence can skew our idea of a man’s looks quite a bit). And yes, I recall myself and many other girls lamenting the confusion of finding a “nice” guy and not being attracted to him and wondering “what is wrong with me????” Finding these blogs and seeing it written out in plain english was an epiphany. I was shocked and angry at first. Skeptical at those men who said terrible things about women!! But after a couple of days of pondering it, “H-O-L-Y! Maritus!” (As he had asked me if the insights we correct and I had told him “No, I really don’t think so”.) “Maritus!! They were right. 100% bleeping right. HOLY COW. This is stunningly amazing and spot on.” While all the while thinking, but what does this mean!?.
So, yeah. We are all red-pill, we just cannot put words to it and we are most likely highly uncomfortable with it all (at least at first) as well.
On the other hand, it can be incredibly useful. Even those of us who don’t like the term usually understand what people mean by it.
Yes, it can just take this one turn of phrase to help open one’s eyes. Realistically, how many people have not seen that movie and don’t know on a gut level what that means? It’s a slap in the face and a useful one at that. One cannot cite the Odyssey to make one understand reality because so few have any familiarity with it. Not true with the Matrix. At this point, I tend to think we use whatever work, even if it’s tedious. Many of us have been around long enough to be completely ready to move on to the next step, but there are too many new people coming in.
As regards the term being just for the sex drive, I am with Peregrine John in that if reflects ALL of reality. Economic, food, foreign policy, religion, all of it.
The question is …
Are you guys attracted to nice guys, even though you know why you’re not attracted to them?
The answer to this has even more connotations then you think …
Are you guys attracted to nice guys, even though you know why you’re not attracted to them?
Attracted, as in aroused or inspired by? No, not really. However, attracted to the power one might have over a “nice” guy is a definite possibility and one that can be even more difficult to identify.
You mean a relationship without strings & attachments … the female version of sex
erm I mean all the benefits of a relationship, without any of the costs of a commitment
“Everybody hear that? Let the search begin! First one to find her wins a fifty dollar finder’s fee”
Honestly, it would be worth far more than that to me. Judging by Proverbs 31:10, such a thing is more precious than rubies.
Just a little joke. My apologies if I offended. I meant I would pay that to the person who found her for you. I don’t know the passage, but I agree. That ultimate mach is priceless. When you find it, you just know (“‘At that moment I knew. I knew the way you know about a good melon” :)) and there’s no confusion, no question, you don’t mess around, you just get down to the business of making it happen.
Not offended in the slightest. I found it amusing, actually. I know that in some countries people are actually paid to be matchmakers. China is one of them I believe.
One of the ways in which I disagree with the Manosphere a bit is how they think women view beta orbiters.
I agree that they’re sometimes “despised”, but sometimes they’re not. In fact, there may sometimes be some genuine affection, just no attraction. Sometimes women will wish they’re attracted to them and are genuinely bothered that they aren’t.
Besides, orbiters have to fill some role for women or they wouldn’t have them. They help out around the house and stuff, but they also help build egos for the alphas. A woman having a guy to string along feeds her ego in much the same way pumping and dumping some mediocre chick feeds his.
One of the best lines in “In the Company of Men” (a MUST SEE red pill movie) was when Christine tells her beta orbiter that she’s in love with the alpha instead. She says “I’m sorry. I shouldn’t have needed both of you.”
Orbiters fill a role for the woman, it’s simply one that’s entirely to her advantage. She might like them, but she doesn’t respect them, and a guy won’t get anywhere in life without respect.
Martel,
Betas aren’t usually despised (as you said, they can be, but that’s usually just the whiny type). Affection is a good way to put it, but it’s as far as it goes. The problem is, we are so easily able to convince ourselves that the guy is perfectly fine with a friendship and will easily ignore any signs to the contrary And yes, it can be very frustrating for women NOT to feel that attraction. Most women know what kind of man they should be attracted to. They know what kind of man will make a good husband and father. Finding a man who fits this exact description and then not being attracted to him is very confusing. Then, some will try to force the attraction and it only gets worse from there. It’s why Athol Kay is such a God send for so many. He teaches these good men how to remain good and drive attraction at the same time. Of course, it would be better for the men and women to go from strength to building comfort than the opposite, but it is a great place to start.
“The problem is, we are so easily able to convince ourselves that the guy is perfectly fine with a friendship and will easily ignore any signs to the contrary”
And this cracks me up. So many times, both in my own orbiting days and when talking to other women: “How in HELL could you not know?”
But I suspect that at least somewhere in the back of their minds, sometimes they DO know. They just choose to accept the easier truth.
One example of this is Bella in Twilight (yes, I read the books, but I was deployed in a desert and ran out of other stuff to read). She knew she was being rotten to Jacob, but she couldn’t help herself because she needed somebody to prop her up emotionally. And she liked the power.
Martel,
My experience was that I always KNEW, but I genuinely enjoyed the guy’s friendship and I had zero attraction to him, so until things came to head (ie/ he would finally work up the courage to timidly ask me out), I continued to enjoy spending time with him.
The reason women are confused when told ‘you shouldn’t have been leading him on’ is that to us it seems that while the sexual attraction aspect is vague and evolving and understood by impressions, the friendship aspect is concrete. You have that certain bond with someone, you like spending time with them in various ways, engaged in various discussions – you’re friends. Does he not enjoy the friendship too? Is it all or nothing – either he can bang the girl or he wants nothing to do with her? To us, the friendship happened first, it exists and it seems to be mutual, so we don’t understand the injunction to compromise it by telling the guy ‘just to be clear, we’re never sleeping together’.
There’s also the fact that there is always a ‘maybe’. Every once in a while, due to a certain mood or a certain situation, a woman will genuinely want to sleep with one of her orbiters (or a random beta). Generally this will happen only once, and she will later remember the experience with a bit of disgust. But she never connects the dots of her thinking/emotional patterns, so she will just know there’s always a ‘maybe’ and will subconsciously justify her behaviour based on that.
“The reason women are confused when told ‘you shouldn’t have been leading him on’ is that to us it seems that while the sexual attraction aspect is vague and evolving and understood by impressions, the friendship aspect is concrete.”
This epitomizes why it’s necessary for guys to follow the “always escalate” maxim. When the certainty of the friendship outweighs the certainty of his attraction, the “friendship” wins. Furthermore, certainty turns women on, so if he’s not certain about what he wants, he won’t get it.
Hence why the blue pill is so dangerous. We’re conditioned to be respectful and to “let things fall into place”, like one magic moment a harp will start playing in the background and it will “just happen.” This might be how it feels for females, but when you condition males to approach mating like females, nobody wins.
And whether or not they’re aware, whether or not they think it’s fun to lead a guy on, I doubt many women have any idea how much it HURTS a guy when his “friend” (who should have noticed his thousand hints) rejects him. He feels betrayed, led on, humiliated, and it sabotages any chance they might have had for friendship if she had been straight with him. But in the female mind, discomfort deferred is discomfort avoided.
So to all the females reading this, your orbiters probably have oneitis for you. You may well permeate their thoughts continually. They’re probably trying to go over your past interactions in their head and wondering how they should have approached things differently, planning what they’ll say next.
One time, however, I did turn things around in a way that defies the “clarity” rule. I wanted more from a “friend”, but one day decided I didn’t see her that way anymore and that I would just enjoy the friendship. Lo and behold, all of a sudden I got IOI’s. I didn’t bite and got even more. I didn’t go for it (I actually genuinely changed my mind), but it was a funny way to flip it around.
But in the female mind, discomfort deferred is discomfort avoided.
Yep and then we turn around and project this right back onto you all. If we feel this way, the guy must too, right? Ugh, the hamster is a clever animal.
“There’s a very fine line between clever and stupid.” –David St. Hubbins
Ha! That is a fantastic quote. And so incredibly true.
To add something to the “orbiter” commentary, I’ve had a female version of that, and orbiters do have use when it comes to going out and doing things. The choice comes down to – do I bring it to a head and make things clear and risk losing my partner for outings, or do I stay quiet for now and enjoy it while it lasts?
The first shows more respect to the orbiter and their feelings, the second is actually rather selfish.
@ Stingray: I quoted from memory, so it may actually be “There’s a (very) fine line between stupid and clever.” Also, he was kind of talking along with Nigel Tufnel when he said it, so you could attribute the quote to both of them.
Spinal Tap has had it’s moments of wisdom, like the lyric (sung with a sense of great profundity), “The more it stays the same, the less it changes!” At times, not so much, like when David said “I believe everything I read, and I find that makes me more selective than one who believes nothing he reads.”
@ Northerner: I’ve also had female observers, and I see your dilemma (which is in some respects similar to what females face). I’ve tried to set a rule that I find somewhat ethical. I don’t want to be a male tease.
I make sure I’m HONEST with myself, and if I am still genuinely not sure if she’s interested, I let it slide. However, I keep my eyes peeled, and if she “makes a move” (and with women this is much more subtle, like orchestrating you somehow getting stranded with her somewhere or lightly touching your arm when she doesn’t have to), then I’ll either bring it up and let her down as easily as I can, or if I think she’s too far gone, I’ll cut off contact and tell her why in an email or something. Even if she doesn’t put the moves on, if I know it’s the case, I’ll do the same.
This doesn’t necessarily have the effect I want it to have(it’s seemed to make them like me even more at times), and I suspect just somehow really screwing her over might do a better job of it, but if I like and/or respect her I’m not able to pull it off.
Unfortunately, and it has been a while, in moments of weakness I have “given in”. It didn’t work out well for me or her, but for guys sometimes it’s hard to say no when it’s offered for free, even if it’s not the best quality and against our better judgement. I’m stronger now.
Ahhhh, Spinal Tap. The movie that taught me the importance of tin foil and cucumbers, where the key of D minor is the saddest of all the keys, and where turning it up to 11 is one louder! It goes to 11.
You can’t deny the wisdom. After all, can you name a key that’s sadder than D minor? I sure as hell can’t.
And by watching their exploits, you can pick up some valuable relationship advice as well. Notice how David surrenders his autonomy to his wife and alienates himself from his band as he allows her to dress them like animals. It almost ruins his career.
So never let a woman do that to you, especially not one who dresses like an Australian’s nightmare.
I’m thinking there’s a better standard prefix for “return,” which is probably re- itself. And rather than literal “kings,” it should probably be male “nobility,” in Greek aristo- meaning “best.” It truly takes a scholar who is expert in the many unanticipated quirks of ancient languages. Aristonostos = homecoming of the best. (Too many o’s though. Aesthetic is 50% of meaningful branding.)
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Matt – re dress codes at church – I hope you don’t mind the techies beign in trackies (as we’re setting up and tearing down as well)