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Since first coming to the sphere, one of the more prolific themes I’ve seen is that being a jerk will get the girl. I’m not here to argue that this is not true because in many, many cases it undoubtably is. A man who is unafraid to be arrogant and rude will be seen by women as more dominant and therefore more attractive. A man that doesn’t have a care for all of the rules (especially her’s) is someone she will notice and, at the very least, be intrigued by.
What I have also noticed in reading these posts, is that many of the behaviors that are described as being caddish, mostly aren’t. I understand why Heartiste, Ace and other writers describe these behaviors the way they do. Frankly, the words used are the easiest and best way to convey their meanings. It is quite clear to the men what is meant by jerk, et etcetera. They don’t have to struggle in anyway to make their point clear about what women find memorable or attractive in many dominant men. Also, learning to be comfortable being what many men (and a lot of women) would consider to be a jerk is part of the journey a man must go through to grow into himself.
Here is what bothers me about the description jerk (or other word of choice). Much of what is described is very, very far from rude or bad behavior from a Man. A Man can be civil yet still terribly blunt. This is not brutish behavior. A Man has a mission and if people are a hinderance in completing that mission, he will have to do what must be done to either move these people out of the way or recruit their help. A man doesn’t do that by being nice. He does it by leading and leaders do not waste their time or the time of others being anything more than civil. If feelings get hurt, then they get hurt. That does not make this man wrong or even rude.
The word jerk and any of it’s synonyms are used by feminists today in an effort to rein in these men who would be leaders. Who would dare to be masculine and who are not going to allow some hurt feelings stand in his way. This is why it bothers me to see these words used to describe the process in becoming a better man. They are words that are rooted in feminist culture in an effort to control what they do not like and do not understand. These are words that anyone in my generation or younger would avoid behaving like at all costs because of the hurt feelings it would induce in others. What I have a problem with is that using these words somehow teaches men that being masculine actually does equate to caddish behavior. It teaches men that, not giving women exactly what we say we want is somehow wrong or worse, arrogant and cruel. It teaches Men that living their life on their own terms, with their own mission being their focus is misguided and hurtful to others. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. This is what a Man does with his life. This is what masculinity is. We should not be painting masculinity in the same light that feminism would and has painted it.
To put this another way, in terms of Game, what is going on here is that using these words is playing into their frame. It is playing into the frame of feminism that this is rude and unacceptable behavior towards others when it is not**. It is not rude to choose not spend money on a woman whom you deem unworthy. It is not rude to cut off a phone call with someone who is blatantly wasting your time, especially when civility is not working. It is not rude to cut friends out of one’s life who would hold you back from accomplishing what you need to accomplish and it is certainly not rude to be very selecting when choosing a certain kind of woman to spend your life with.
Living this way is not being a jerk or an arrogant cad. This is the life of a Man and it should not be painted in a bad light.
**Yes, of course there are actual jerks and cads out there getting plenty of women. These are the men who are blatantly rude and even cruel and still go home with a lot of of girls. Women will still find them more attractive than Mr. Nice Guy. However, the man I speak about here, that Man who is his own person, who is civil yet unapologetic, this is the Man that women will find even more attractive and far more dominant than the actual jerk. If men have to go through the actual jerk phase to come outside a better man, I understand that process (I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I get the logic behind it), but the two should not be conflated.
An absolutely OUTSTANDING post Sting. My hats off to you!
Solid
Agreed. In the future, if anyone should accuse me of being a jerk, my new response will be as follows:
“I’m not being a jerk, I’m just acting like a Man.”
Or thereabouts anyways.
“To put this another way, in terms of Game, what is going on here is that using these words is playing into their frame.”
Where’s the ball? Oh, that’s right, out of the park, where you hit it.
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Chicks don’t like jerks, but they like them more than nice guys. The choice between jerks and nice guys is a false one bcause there is a type of guy that women like more than jerks, and that’s the fully actualized man. Jerks are lacking as their jerkiness usually comes from a weakness. On the other nahd, sometimes jerkiness is just refusing to dance to her tune and making a show of it which is aok.
Gentlemen,
Thank you.
donalgraeme,
In my opinion, better than even saying anything, is just giving that smirk. The one that says (especially giving it to a woman) you’re cute, but you are very silly. There is an equivalent look to give to a man who says this and I think it would be less on the silly and more of the “quit being an idiot”.
Only if the person asks “what’s that look mean” or something akin to that should you answer. Also, leave out the acting part. Your not acting like a Man. You are a Man. It may seem trivial, but leaving out these words conveys a whole lot.
JS123,
Exactly. Only, she will refer to the refusing to dance to her tune as jerkiness. Her saying it doesn’t make it true. You define what it means. Never her.
This is an excellent post & I’ve been thinking along the same lines recently.
It’s funny because I’ll be sitting with my husband & some of his male friends & I’ll be ignoring their conversation, but then when I do tune in, the conversations between men are so different than when a woman is involved. The conversations are pretty blunt. When women are involved, the language is softened quite a bit & there are a lot more qualifiers used. Just something I noticed lately.
@ Stingray
You are right about the use of the word “acting.” Poor choice. The smirk goes without saying. As for whether to say something or not, that might be situational. If I am leaving, then it might be a power move to get in the last word.
Temptest,
What you are talking about used to be a good thing. Men would temper their language around women as a sign of respect for the ladies. However, I don’t know that they did this for the women so much as they did it for themselves. They expected themselves and other men to behave around the women. Now, a lot of men do it out of fear. Women can often tell the difference as to when a man does it for himself and when it’s down out of fear. One guess as to whom we respect more?
donalgraeme,
That smirk, it’s wonderful. I love it and hate it at the same time. ;)
“Now, a lot of men do it out of fear.”
Right – it really seems like women get offended so easily these days, whereas I remember when I was a child they just didn’t have as thin of a skin.
I had to step away from RPW subreddit today because so many of the women are so touchy & kind of screechy. Some are lovely, but others… I’m not sure I’m going to go back.
Men on the other hand seem to be able to have a fairly blunt conversation without a lot of hurt feelings & without getting offended at every little tiny thing.
Temptest,
The women being touchy is one of the reasons I was so hesitant to join and also the reason I post very little. I don’t have the patience for it. It’s also why you’ll see me on so many male dominated threads. You can have a discussion in good faith. You can argue an alternative point of view without all of the hurt feelings. Maybe it is selfish of me, but I learn nothing from hurt feelings. Argue with me, tell me I’m wrong, but leave the feelings out of it. Everyone can learn that way.
Yes, exactly. I have gotten rid of all the caustic people in my life (all single women around my age) & now I let some back in via reddit. Time to purge again.
Sorry to run away with your comment section :)
Not at all. I don’t mind tangents in the least. It’s part of the fun!
“Men do it out of fear” – how about blue-pill men think they have to behave that way because they’ve been convinced uncouth beats who need to supplicate to “superior” females they encounter. In other words, stripped of any concept of masculinity as a positive quality.
“convinced uncouth” -> “convinced they’re uncouth”
arg…
Wouldn’t that stripping be due to fear?
@Stingray – brilliant post
@donal – another word change suggestion. Instead of “I’m not being a jerk” say “Glad you like it” or “I know, right?” or something ownership oriented.
Saying “I’m not…” always makes me feel defensive. Screw that – I’m not going to argue about frame set or jerk shaming (lulz), I’m going to relish and own my manliness.
Think of an elephant who’se been chained to a stump until he gives up struggling against the restraint. After he’s given up fighting, all that’s needed to restrain him afterwards is a chain and a small stake. This is based on him being mentally convinced he’s in a “weaker than the restraint” state.
A man who’se dis-empowered / psychologically castrated / shamed for having masculine qualities from his youth can manifest a similar behavior. You’ll see a similar response to long-term low-level bullying and abuse.
ANO,
Ok. I get that, but given that the elephant can still break the small stake, even though he knows there will be severe consequences, what keeps him from breaking it?
I get that the chain is heavy and thick. I do, but when it comes right down to the nitty gritty of it, what keeps him from breaking the chain?
tj,
Thank you.
Once an elephant’s been broken, the reason a chain attached to any stake will work is because the elephant is convinced in his mind that the chain hooked to his leg cannot be overpowered.
It’s not a question of consequences, it’s one where he’s convinced he can’t overcome the chain.
The reality in his head doesn’t match the physical reality. The mental reality is what will control his behavior.
@Ano – the elephant also forgets he can pull against the chain – why even try? Ugh – bitter flashbacks
Ok. That makes sense, but in the sense that Tempest and I were talking about, men using qualifying words in conversations with women, is what you are talking about the case? Or are there instances where men’s reactions are driven by what you talking about (the most common being marriage) where men feel chained and other instances with unrelated women where it is more driven by fear?
Also, would it depend on the man’s age? I would see millennials as being more overpowered simply from complete exposure.
TJ – exactly. He’s given up, which is when such a powerful animal becomes easy to control.
tj and ANO,
I am trying to understand this. Is it more extensive than fear in that it is so ingrained that there is a sort of loss of will? This is hard for me to identify with 1)being a woman and 2) I still remember before the total immersion of feminism.
He’s given up, which is when such a powerful animal becomes easy to control.
Until he realizes he is powerful again. It’s coming. I don’t know when, but it is.
@Stingray – for me at least, it was very similar to a loss of will. Social conditioning and a variety of other factors including lack of knowledge of any other way, lead me down an uber-beta nice guy path – and yes, I take full responsibility for this.
To complete the elephant analogy, it simply never occurred to me to pull against the chain.
Until he realizes he is powerful again.
You see this today when men first find the red pill, their eyes are opened, and they’re enraged by the lies they’ve swallowed all those years. Once they move past the anger and start learning about their God-given masculinity – that’s when you’ll see the real power being displayed.
Fear is about what someone else can do to you.
On the other hand, if a person’s will has been broken, or they’ve been so utterly convinced about something, and they completely identify with their “adversary”, then fear doesn’t enter into the picture because their goals and their “adversary”‘s goal are one and the same.
Anyone who’ve grown up under feminism’s influence will fit into the latter example simply because they’ve never known anything else – until they learn otherwise.
tj and ANO,
I think I understand what you mean now. Thank you for your explanations. With some things, it’s almost as if people don’t even know there is a chain.
With some things, it’s almost as if people don’t even know there is a chain.
EXACTLY. Imagine the perspective of a child who’se grown up in a prison, and that’s all they know.
I actually had a couple of cats who only knew my apartment, and the view from the windows. When I carried them outside a couple of times, they weren’t too happy about it as it was completely outside their experience.
With some things, it’s almost as if people don’t even know there is a chain.
To further this thread – I had the same experience – until something happened and my eyes were opened that being nice to a woman would never work. You can imagine the follow-on feels at figuring out that ~twenty years of effort was all for naught.
It’s fascinating that I only noticed my error after having hit ‘publish’.
I decided to leave it, wondering if anyone would call me out on it.
Only you, a female, did.
[I cast no stones at the men that did not.
Hell, I wrote it and missed it at first-pass.]
If that doesn’t demonstrate just how chained we men are, and how invisibly so, I’m unsure if anything will.
Thanks for both your comment and this post.
Nicely written, Sting.
I try to say that being assertive will FEEL like being a jerk, if you have been subservient and not advocating for yourself in the past. You’re not actually getting to the point where you actually are turning into an abusive person.
It’s sort of trying to explain that putting your needs first is not selfish, because nobody else is going to do that for an adult. Selfish would be tending ONLY to your own needs and either ignoring everyone else’s, or, doing so at their expense.
Isn’t that the truth. And after spending the past year conversing and debating with men around here, I find that I can now hardly tolerate trying to have a debate with women (present company excepted). They become hysterical, they create ridiculous straw men, they form factions, they gossip and bitch, and they hold absurd grudges over intellectual disagreements.
Good post, Mrs. Stingray.
1. Mark Flowers is a true dedicated Christian but a non denominational and non church going Christian, a praying man upon his knees and he gives all credit to his survival to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as his savoir and protector of him and his loved ones. Mark has to continually break all curses in Jesus Christ’s name, sent by witch craft and the Satanic agenda.
2. Mark Flowers is a fighter, a man that will never bow to any evil corruption, to DEATH.
3. Mark Flowers has had the fatherhood of his children stolen by the masons / system / The Australian Government.
4. Mark Flowers is a survivor of more than a decade of intense murderous Freemasonry Gang Stalking {a term he coined} and raised in the Federal Magistrates Court Parramatter Sydney Australia in 2009 & 2010 whilst defending his rights to father his children.
5. Mark Flowers has had so many attempts on his life in the process of Freemasonry gangstalking that they are too numerous to list, most have been whilst driving in road traffic accident setups by gangstalkers . But all manner of threats have come against Mark Flowers, One time a sour mason wielding a hammer at Mark’s head got a lesson in respect and kicked off Mark’s property. The police always fail to follow such death threats against Mark Flowers.
6. Mark Flowers has self-represented in some 60 appearances in the Federal Magistrates Court, the District Court and the Supreme Court in Australia and all with nil formal education, in fact Mark left school at 14 years and first job was in a lumber yard.
7. Mark Flowers is a Father first, and a former children’s safety film producer, but the dogs of gangstalking were released on him for doing so. Mark has been fighting ever since and will never give in, as the eternity in spirit and fear of God through Christ Jesus motivates him to be fearless against evil.
If I fall in this good fight it will be into the arms of my saviour Jesus Christ.
Brother Mark
http://www.markflowers.org/
Ace,
You noticed it. A lot don’t. It’s not even a second thought.
I can’t imagine all of the little strings that still maintain some attachment to old indoctrinated ways. Cutting them all on a permanent basis, . . . what that must take.
I’m glad you like the post. Thanks for commenting.
Off the Cuff,
I can’t remember what sparked the conversation, but my husband and I were talking about this one night. He told me, I have to come first so that I can take care of you and the kids. He’s absolutely correct.
Sunshinemary,
It’s incredibly frustrating. What really gets my goat is how many claim we (any of us conversing) are close minded and unintelligent. Shutting down at hearing one discomforting word is not open minded nor is simply discussing a topic that makes one uncomfortable. How else does one learn?
Mark flowers needs to stop spamming the blogosphere with his cut and paste spam.
I must be missing something as I can only see one post by “Ace”. Was there a secret only visible to the females among us? :)
ANO,
I’m not sure I should even keep his post up. It’s the second time he’s left it. He’d get more readers if he started leaving comments.
Regarding Ace, he meant that in the post I linked, I was the only one who called him out in referring to his actions in a negative way. I think he was surprised it was by a woman and not a man.
I have to remind my H every so often (because he is trying to move from beta to alpha)
But when he moves in the directions (words/disrespect/whininess) of some of the bloggers on ROK, Roosh, PUA sites instead of MMSL for instance, I call him out on it.
I remind him that I’ll be his follower and first mate, but I won’t be his doormat…
I read (and comment) on many of the manosphere bogs too, in order to learn…
But those that disrespect women or put them in a useless category (or tell men how to “get 4 in one night”) I have a tough time following.
Just as much as I would a feminist blog telling me men are useless. I would find a blog like that very hard to swallow (and would probably be forced to write a comment to respond, in fact!)
I have to remind my H every so often (because he is trying to move from beta to alpha). But when he moves in the directions (words/disrespect/whininess) of some of the bloggers on ROK, Roosh, PUA sites instead of MMSL for instance, I call him out on it.
If you want to help “your man” to be more alpha vs beta, be very careful on how you “call him out”, as that can be presented in an unsubmissive manner, which in turn will undermine what he’s trying to do.
If you see him acting that way, ask him what he’s trying to accomplish, how that lines up with “alpha” behavior, and if it doesn’t – how it could be more alpha.
Personally, from what I’ve read from your post, you have some work of your own to do in this journey….
ANO – I do indeed :-)
AW – knowing you need work is often more than half the battle.
And, should you desire it, you’ve also come to a good place to get constructive input to help you on your way. :)
I remind him that I’ll be his follower and first mate, but I won’t be his doormat…
I would caution you to be careful, as did ANO, in how you “call him out”. If you expect your husband to be alpha and your leader in the way that you tell him to be so, you are still leading the relationship. A first officer cannot give directions on how to lead. She can, however, coax. She can make suggestions and let her wants be known. It is then up to the captain to make the decision.
I understand your dislike of some of the sites you wrote of. But don’t forget, those sites are written by men and for men. Their language is going to be harsh because that is how men best understand. Part of the journey to becoming alpha is for men to shed their illusions. It is for them to see women as we are. It is our job as woman and wives, to rise above what our nature is and be the best first officer we can be. That is a woman that men respect and care for. It is also our job, as helper, to trust our husbands and go where he goes, even when we don’t like it. This is not being a doormat, it is being fully trusting of the men we love. As I said before, let your opinions be known, give suggestions, argue your point. But in the end, trust where he leads you and fight the fight together.
I have been planning for a few days a post on this very thing. I don’t know when I will get a chance to write it, but hopefully this week. Check back in if you’re interested.
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