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In my Introducing Girls Being Girls post I made the drive by comment that “Women tend to be more feminine around men.”*** Seriouslypleasedropit has asked me expand upon this point. The basic explanation to this is the fact that women actually do care, very much, what men think of them.
Professor Ashur writes:
It helps confirm my belief that most women care deeply about how males regard them (even beta males), and that the exercise of male judgment is an unseen and very powerful social tool that beta males have allowed to atrophy, out of a misplaced sense of chivalry. Just as mankind has always sought approval from its gods, women seek the approval of men.
This is very much true and it is often what we see in orbiters and men put in the friend-zone. A woman might not be attracted to these men, but their opinions of her very much matter. Think of all the stories we hear of the men who got sick of the friend-zone and simply walked away. So very often the woman will come seek him out. She will change her actions ever so slightly to lure him back to her. The more he resists, the more she will attempt to give him what he wants from her.
Dalrock has also written about this seemingly little known fact (read his post in it’s entirety. It’s excellent):
. . . men have no idea how much their judgment of women impacts them. Women fear judgment from other women, especially those higher than them in the social hierarchy. However, even more than this they fear judgment from men. They don’t just fear judgment from men in the top of the male hierarchy, they fear judgment from any man who has the basic respect of other men (which is most men). Even women at the top of the female hierarchy fear the judgment of ordinary (respected by other men) men.
This is a form of power almost all men have but fail to exercise for a number of reasons, but of critical importance is the fact that most have no idea the power even exists. Feminists however do understand this, which is why they spend so much of their energy working to ensure that neither men nor women feel comfortable judging bad behavior from women. They have been wildly successful here, but they will always be extremely vulnerable to men figuring this out.
The reason that women tend to be more feminine around men (at least in those men who highly value it) is that what you all think of us is extremely important to us. We know the men here highly value femininity and your presence keeps that in check. With no men around, it is very easy to get comfortable and simply begin to lag, to get lazy and to just let things slide. This is decidedly unfeminine. With the men around who value this and whom we know value it, we will work very hard to not let it slide, to stay humble and feminine and to stay true because we very highly value your opinion of us.
Sunshine Mary has an intriguing post up today that touches on some of these thoughts. She wishes to discuss the assertion that:
Men improving themselves as a group will actually cause women to become even lower quality, as women will have their pick of attractive alpha types without having to do much to attract them, so this would actively harm men. Therefore men as a group should discourage one another from improving themselves in ways that women find attractive.
If we are simply talking about attraction and short term flings, then I believe this has some merit to it. However, in talking about relationships and commitment I think this is definitely not the case. As has been said many times, women are the gatekeepers to sex and men are the gatekeepers to commitment. If and when men as a group begin to improve themselves if all they are seeking is an attractive woman for sex, then I think this will be true. A woman’s looks is what she will seek to change and we see this rampantly today in the way women dress, wear make up and carry themselves in an attention grabbing and promiscuous way.
When an attractive man begins his search for commitment, however, this picture will change dramatically. When these men begin their search for the feminine woman who is more humble, who strives to be pretty rather than sexy, who seeks a man to take care of, who is not crass, brash and sassy but rather radiant, happy and fun other women will take notice. The more men who begin to overtly search for these women and make their opinions known of what they are looking for, the more the women watching this will seek this change for themselves, because even though they recoil at the thought of it, women very much do care what men think of them. If and when feminist begin to fail in their quest to quell the thoughts, opinions and words of men, this will become far more apparent. As women begin to see the lies they have been told and overtly realize that the men around them are very important to them, we will see a greater return to femininity. Men want it and when they make this known, women will follow.
**It should be noted that this can backfire as well. If a woman gets male attention from being masculine (which many do) they will act more masculine as well. This is a big reason many act in a far more masculine manner today.
Fathers especially have a big influence on women in this way.
Sis,
Thank you. That is an excellent point.
You can see by my comments over at SSM’s i wholly agree and support your conclusions.
“When an attractive man begins his search for commitment, however, this picture will change dramatically. When these men begin their search for the feminine woman who is more humble, who strives to be pretty rather than sexy, who seeks a man to take care of, who is not crass, brash and sassy but rather radiant, happy and fun other women will take notice.”
I one tracked for that feminine woman. Any women who might look at my blog and want someone like me are officially put on notice that my gf is being rewarded for being that feminine creature and not a loud brash tnkgrrl bitch that i simply won’t accept even if the world were 95% loud brash tnkgrrl women.
What M3 said echoes my thoughts. I have thought of doing a follow-up post to Positive Feedback called… you guessed it, “Negative Feedback.” Basically, if I can, I will make it clear to women when they are acting unfeminine that I don’t like it. Whether that means leaving their presence, or telling them to leave mine; or shaming them, or something.
Part of the SSM post was the Red Queen effect:
“Now, think about what would happen if all men started to boost their attractiveness. Each woman would be able to get a more attractive man without changing anything at all about how they go about their day. ”
Which reminds me of the vegetarian/vegan defense that if EVERYONE ate nothing but Paleo it wouldn’t be sustainable (not that that is true; it is just a thing they say). The thing is that ALL MEN aren’t going to boost their attractiveness, just as the vegetarians in India aren’t ALL going to suddenly go Paleo.
Also they keep harping on about how there are no marriageable women in the US today. I have no idea where they live, but in the smaller cities & towns in the center of the country, there are plenty, but that’s just a pet peeve :)
@ Tempest
How sure are you of this? I mean, are you really sure? Because a lot of young women have become rather good at appearing like they have value, but really don’t.
Perhaps you have a different definition of marriageable than me, or most men, but we do find them quite rare. And most of the ones who do exist… they get snapped up right away. Which means that those of use who missed out in high school, or maybe college, are left adrift.
I’m thinking aloud here, but I almost wonder if some of what might initially attract a man to a woman could be the opposite of what makes him want to commit to her.
We’re more likely to notice really short skirts, but do we want to marry a woman who always wears them? Also, a woman with “moxie” is more likely to be somebody we talk to in a bar, and when we first meet her it might strike us as a fun challenge to pass her tests. Not unlike the woman who’s turned off by a guy who gives her his heart too easily, we might like it when a woman makes it hard to get her number. If getting her number was a major hurdle, we might suspect that she’ll just as hard for other guys.
But, if two months into the relationship she’s still trying to be that strong independent woman we first met, it’s going to get real old real fast. If she gets too devoted too easily, we know that another guy with Game can get what we got just as easily. However, if she never shows any devotion, we know she’ll never really attach to us.
Just thoughts I haven’t really explored yet…
Working so short, but I liked the post and thanks for the link
M3,
Currently, many women will see this and go run to their nearest herd and hamster away what you say, what you sought and what you’ve found happiness in. Others, though, they will take heart and seek to change. I think this is already happening. It might be a small number now, but it has the potential to grown. The more men who do this and the more women who seek to change will create ever more. A ripple effect if you will. Then herd that angry women will have to run to and hamster this away will grow smaller and smaller.
donalgraeme,
Both positive and negative are necessary, I think. And, women need to face it. Many of us need to learn how to take criticism. It’s part of being an adult. Feminism has done a terrible job on adulthood in many a manner.
“seemingly little known fact”? My dear hostess, it is almost entirely unknown to the vast majority of men. Those who actually grok that fact are at the numeric level of statistic anomaly. Some few scattered men sort of get it as a general thing, but understanding the level of truth there is rare. We’ve been told otherwise, directly and indirectly, for so long that… well, even seeing it and having it explained to me by women, I feel resistance to accepting its importance. As to why this great secret should be what it is, observe the reaction most women have to realizing it themselves, and to the thought that normal men might figure it out.
Tempest got to what I was originally going to say before I did: that not everyone’s going to do anything in particular, and certainly not something that’ll require extended effort. That is, not unless it is (or becomes) a societal more. Cultures beget stereotypes for reasons. If, for example, taking care of one’s appearance by one means or another is the norm, then by Jove it will be done by all who want at least a minimum of success with their fellow humans. However, that’s not the issue at hand. Not everyone is going to suddenly become the ideal man or woman, or get as fit as their body is able, or anything else like that. Just isn’t happening. The entire argument is moot.
Tempest,
Temptest,
You’re right. Not all men are ever going to do this. Many have absolutely no desire. On the other hand, many women are the same. A lot of people are happy being miserable and would rather stay that way. It’s easier for them.
As to the marriageable women, I have wondered that, but I have no opinion. It may seem like a lot in small town USA (I’ve seen this, too) but I have no idea what the overall percentage is.
Stingray, I believe you are correct, in your reply to M3: Success inspires followers. Those who improve themselves will succeed more, and those whose desire to succeed is greater than their investment in bad ideology will take note. Those with the most (emotional investment) to lose will of course fight against them in any way they can, but when those giving the reward (the opposite sex, in our current example) notice enough to at least stop so readily rewarding bad behavior, it will accelerate. Tipping points almost always occur far earlier in the statistical curve than people expect.
Martel,
I tend to think there is a line. A line that one must go back and forth between staying just before the line and just past the line in attraction. A woman must learn how to first draw the eye of a man and then be fun enough, pretty enough and coy enough to keep him interested. But she must not go too far past that line or he will lose respect or admiration for her. That line is a delicate dance and it is no longer being taught to girls. Neither are they bothering to figure out the dance on their own.
Peregrine John,
There is a study floating around that states that once 10% of the population is aware of something, that is when it reaches the tipping point. You’re right that not everyone is suddenly going to become ideal. That tipping point will be reached through the ripples and sadly, many people are going to be left behind because of their life choices. Given the way the SMP works, this is going to be a lot more women than men. A man can change at 35, 40, 45 and 50 or even later and find a much younger woman whom he will be very happy with. This is not the case for women.
Leap,
Thank you.
I followed links back a bit and came across this. It confirms in various ways my suspicion about why an average man’s power would be completely unknown to him.
Perigrine John,
I actually linked that one in the post here. ;)
so all a woman has to do in order to fool any man into thinking she is worth being with, is to act in a feminine manner for a little while.
Agree. Two comments.
1) the greatest effectiveness for this will be in person, not in text. We don’t have as great a need for your positive attention/fear of your negative attention in type (although it still exists, it’s weaker). Praise the feminine women and *give them your attention* while ignoring the masculine women or the tomboys. The tomboys got the upper hand because they got your time and your conversation and your attention. The overtly sexual women – likewise. You want feminine women? Hand out the attention to feminine women. Also – you will get hamster pushback in words. Ignore it and watch actions.
2) it never ceases to amaze me that men don’t know that women play games all the time, but that the game is lost when a man notices. That’s how we play all our really *nasty*, soul-crushing games … the goal is to never have concrete evidence that you could explain to a man. Even those of us who verbally say you’re not important to us… guess what? You are. Don’t get all verbal on us (that’s our strength). Just be yourself, hand out praise where you see fit. Display contempt and disinterest (don’t be aggressive, it will create fear instead of respect/interest) where you see fit.
I was over at The Crescat (a pretty much TNP Catholic) where she has a couple of interesting (recent) posts – one regarding things women do to crap on their marriages and another on fashion (or lack thereof). She isn’t for everyone, but does make her points well. Actually, I particularly like the “leggings aren’t pants” one.
Oh for crying out loud. And you quoted that one, too! Eh, that’s what I get for not checking my URLs before posting. Silly boy.
Stingray,
Thank you. I was feeling powerless. Not anymore…
you will get hamster pushback in words. Ignore it and watch actions.
Holy cow, yes. You will get massive hamster push back from some women. Ignore it in action, but take note of it. This is your big clue that what you are saying, who you are, and what you are doing means something to her. It means a lot. Hate is not the opposite of love. Indifference is. It is the woman who does not react in any way, that does not care. She is the rare woman, indeed. Even the woman who cruelly laughs, does so because she knows it will have power over you. It is the woman who cares not at all that does nothing and says nothing.
it never ceases to amaze me that men don’t know that women play games all the time,
I don’t think they can see it like we do, Hearthie. Men’s brains are not wired to pick up on the little cues that are our tells. That’s why they so often make the mistake of listening to our words. They can learn these cues though, and they are. Thank goodness.
Maeve,
Thank you for the information. I’ll take a look.
Peregrine John,
Heh. It’s a great post and deserves to be linked twice!
Fuzzie Wuzzie,
You should never feel powerless. You only are when you let us take it from you. When a woman rails back at you, you’ve gotten to her. That railing merely proves my point. When she tries to shame you, same thing. When she tries to laugh at you, the same. These might be the very frequent responses and they are frames for the very purpose of taking your power. Don’t give it up.
When a woman is being inquisitive, when she is asking thoughtful, if even misguided questions, that is when you know she is at least making an attempt.
We’ve both (men and women) lost all the subtle tells for everything. And gamers on both sides can play this to the ropes. I once watched a boy hypnotize himself (at 14) by playing with the pearl bracelets on my wrist.
It seems like no one has a *clue* why you don’t do certain things in certain situations any more. We’re left with the rules and no whys.
Nope baby doll, cannot buy that line of thinking. In army towns where women are out numbered their appearances and attitudesare the worse. Personal experience kills the idea that being around men improves women by default
Absolutely and even “beta males” can do it.
Not around here, Ton. Drop by any restaurant in an average evening in the town by the Marine base and you see the girls dressed to the nines and enough to inspire a lad to enlist.
hearthie,
Ans the “no why’s can be devastating. It makes the rules nearly obsolete.
Ton,
I believe your experience, but what were these men expecting from these women? Anything, or were they taking what they could get?
Hipster Racist,
There are very few men whom women don’t look up to on at least some level. If a man is generally respected by other men, what he things is important to her.
Thanks for commenting and welcome!
never really thought about this before. i’ve always been the type that if i don’t like, just avoid you.
very few people fall into that catagory with me though.
i guess maybe this (as in this post) explains my relative admiration by most women i come across. hell, i even flirt with most of my female readers (most of whom i’ve never met) and they seem to eat it up.
The difference between Marine Bases and Army Posts may just be the locations . ie California.
What Ton said is absolutely true here at Fort Sill. It’s a historical fact, actually. When the laundresses kept marrying the Soldiers within 30 days of getting off the train back when the Fort was just getting started, the General requested a trainload of the ugliest woman that could be found. It took 90 days for them to all get married so they kept ordering more thus contributing to this town’s base of ugly women. It is fascinating to me to see what there is here for these young single Soldiers to choose from – land whales in jammie pants and slippers.
Stingray, this is a great post. There’s been a lot of talk about negative feedback lately, and it is certainly very important and can be very effective long-term. But positive feedback is totally untapped, probably, like you said, because most men have no idea of the degree to which women need male approval.
And it has immense potential.
You’re right that it goes right to the top – a woman of even the highest value will seek approval from any man. I used to think it was some kind of ego thing, like a need for attention, but it’s not, at least not directly. We just have a deep-seated need to be valued by men.
I wonder if it is in fact this that feminists rail endlessly against when they go on about the Patriarchy. Because even though they’ve killed the Patriarchy as a social system, they have not, and cannot ever, destroy women’s inborn need for male approval. They sense it within themselves and so they feel that the Patriarchy isn’t dead yet. No, in a sense it never will be. The potential for men to take it back and make it an overt system again will always be there, because at our core we are always ready to submit ourselves to male judgement.
(On a more mundane note, this is why ‘good girl’ is such an effective comment, as Danny can attest to ;) )
the General requested a trainload of the ugliest woman that could be found.
Why the ugliest?
I wonder if it is in fact this that feminists rail endlessly against when they go on about the Patriarchy. Because even though they’ve killed the Patriarchy as a social system, they have not, and cannot ever, destroy women’s inborn need for male approval.
That is an excellent thought. One must wonder if this has anything to do with why some of them intentionally uglify themselves as well. Is it an attempt to get rid of those feelings of their approval? It makes a lot of sense.
The potential for men to take it back and make it an overt system again will always be there, because at our core we are always ready to submit ourselves to male judgement.
Not only that, but just given simply biology, men can take it back any time they wish by simply being far stronger than women.
Phedre,
On an unrelated note, would you mind if I reposted your Nutrition post over at Girls Being Girls?
Though I’m fascinated by the idea of feminism trying to kill women’s own inborn needs, I’m too gobsmacked by the story of Ft. Sill to form a coherent thought about it. Apart from the straight-up bizarreness of the general’s order, let alone his repeating it, are you saying the uglification has continued to today as a result, all on its own? That is some powerful evidence of the influence of culture, and its effectiveness even on a small scale.
SD,
Ugly women trains. That’s funny. Maybe I should tell some of my pretty Christian single friends to check out your Army base. They could score husbands while helping to beautify the town.
Stingray,
I’m I the only person here who finds it puzzling that women would not want to be pretty and feminine? Being pretty offers so many advantages. For one, people tend to treat you better and act more respectfully toward you.
Why would I let myself go and lose these advantages when it’s relatively easy to eat well, exercise, dress fashionably and take care of my hair and skin? Why would any woman purposefully leave the house looking like sh*t?
Sloth is easier. Or looks like it. Describes most of the “mortal sin” list, come to think of it. Easier at the start leads to all sorts of trouble later, like when slovenly habits cause more work, or bad results that rather than be fixed are railed against as unfair. Lots of effort seems to go into trying to convince others that their preferences are subjective, wrong, icky, and evil, rather than generating the good habits that prevent all that unpleasantry. Virtue takes less effort in the long run, and gives better results. Only short-sightedness makes the choice for sloth.
@ Lisa: Don’t send them to Ft. Sill. There may be potential husbands, but it’s OKLAHOMA for crying out loud. A Vermonter would simply wither away.
Instead, send them to me. i’m near beaches and all sorts of fun stuff. Even though I might eventually have to settle on only one of them. Me and my surrounding scenery could easily entertain all of them for a while.
I’m thinking out loud again, but I think that the whole “love me even though I’m ugly” effect is some sort of mutant combination of rejecting one’s own femininity yet being a slave to it. They’ve been taught to reject their own feminine traits just as much as they’ve been taught to reject men for appreciating them.
But they still need male praise, desperately. Because femininity is a “social construct” if a man likes her for being pretty or feminine, he doesn’t like the “real” her. The “real” her is a battle tank, so in her desperation to be accepted for her “real” self, she becomes an even bigger, louder tank.
But included as well is what I’ve termed the “shrew effect”:
http://alphaisassumed.wordpress.com/2013/06/06/from-hamster-to-shrew/
and http://alphaisassumed.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/princess-of-the-damned/
Lisa,
John is right. It’s laziness. It is also short sightedness. I struggle with this very thing all the time. While I have greatly improved, I still am pretty bad at it. I have a thousand excuses, a couple might even be legitimate but it all boils down to just being lazy and not wanting to take the time to do it.
In my case, I like to be pretty and feminine, I just don’t always take the time to do it. In others cases, I think it makes them very angry that they get more attention from men this way. They believe they should get it by virtue of who they are. Only, how we present ourselves is a big part of who we are.
This reminds me that I have some dresses and skirts to purchase . . .. .
Ooooooh. Martel beat me by mere seconds.
@ Stingray: Beating you is one of my favorite pasttimes..
However, I think that your laziness point is true, but it goes along with my point, too. Both males and females can sometimes want to be attractive for their “real” self, and their “real” self just so happens to be what’s most lazy, ugly, and immature about them.
If we hope to be attractive for what we’ve become or earned, we’re taking responsibility for ourselves and our lives. When we define our “real” selves as what’s worst in ourselves, we get to blame everybody else for not appreciating how pretty our farts smell. We don’t get what we want, but we never have to take the blame.
PS: I love Bastiat, and as soon as I have time I’ll defend myself in ways he would appreciate.
Ya gotta love this community. Makes you laugh and think at the same time.
When you visit the Post museum and watch the video presentation you get the whole story. This was in the mid 1800’s before Oklahoma was a state. The new laundresses would marry Soldiers within a month of arriving and they’d no longer work (outside the home, imagine the workload in a home on the frontier). They needed one laundress per four Soldiers at the time. They had to make the soap and starch. One wool uniform would take 30 minutes to press. Command was tired of having to continue to send for more women and believed the Soldiers wouldn’t marry homely laundresses (HA!). It did take longer, but within a few months he’d have to send for more.
We’ve lived many places and while Okies are an extremely friendly and accomodating people…they sure aren’t much to look at. It doesn’t help that sunshine and beautiful blue skies occur 340 days of the year. Skin gets weathered fast here.
Lisa,
It starts with laziness, but after a while of looking like crap it not only takes much more effort to look good, it feels really weird too.
When my health was bad I stopped taking care of my appearance, and when I started again I felt ill at ease and was hyper-conscious of everyone’s gaze. Plus, people who were used to me dressing in jeans and a T-shirt kept asking me why I was so ‘dressed up’, which made me feel more awkward.
Of course, I knew it was just an acclimatisation phase so I pushed through it steadily, but for a woman who has no experience in regularly looking good and well-groomed, it must seem as though dressing up ALWAYS results in awkwardness and a feeling of fakeness. And if taking care of yourself leads to feeling both uncomfortable and false, then of course it’s a bad thing, and shouldn’t be done for the sake of others….
Stingray,
Let me just read it over and see if I want to modify anything.
Danny,
You go about things differently. I left a comment to Mitch recently about how you two strive to just make people smile. It shows on your blog very much.
Phedre,
The part about being uncomfortable is very true and why I think it makes it even easier to be lazy, at least for me. I haven’t pushed through it steadily and I need to make myself do that. I have this completely irrational feeling as if everyone is watching me. It’s dumb and I tell myself that many times, but I can’t shake it. It’s actually part of a post I have been thinking of writing over at GBG.
If you dress up all the time, at least to some degree, the put-together outfit will become your ‘skin’, and then the feeling will pass. There’s nothing more to it.
thank you little Sister. that’s very kind of you. i just strive to take an honest stance on the SMP. Mitch is actually heading down here tomorrow. lol.
Both males and females can sometimes want to be attractive for their “real” self, and their “real” self just so happens to be what’s most lazy, ugly, and immature about them.
I had never thought about it this way and you’re probably very right. It’s depressing, but right.
I look forward to you defense and I want to thank you for what have said today. I truly appreciate it.
Thank you, Phedre.
Danny,
Have a great time tomorrow. And also in Vegas! You all are going to have such a great time!
we’re gonna make girls tingle. DUH we’re gonna have a good time. lol.
If a girl wants married in under a year, she should move to Fayetteville NC and have a decent social life. Ok give her 15 months so she has some time to settle in and find her groove. She’ll land a guy who has a steady paycheck, decent benefit package, and runs 5 times a week.
Military men should never marry, and if a woman “loves” a man she could best demonstrate that by not marrying him but those are separate issues
@ Stingray: I think it’s a function of us craving to be loved at our worst. However, one of the most basic red-pill realizations is that nobody OWES us anything, that if we suck, if our partner has other options, they’re going to take them.
We want the perfect and most desirable man/woman who has the option to have somebody better but who’ll stay with us no matter how bad we get. That’s not another person’s job–that’s God’s.
“Which reminds me of the vegetarian/vegan defense that if EVERYONE ate nothing but Paleo it wouldn’t be sustainable (not that that is true; it is just a thing they say). The thing is that ALL MEN aren’t going to boost their attractiveness, just as the vegetarians in India aren’t ALL going to suddenly go Paleo.”
The vegetarians and vegans I know have been “paleo” before today’s so-called “paleos” even knew that gmo soy and corn was bad for them. And vegetarians in India are way more paleo than any so called “paleo” here in the processed food capital of the world.
Western “paleo” is a joke and there is nothing “paleo” about it.
dweeb
Ha!! Why?! …..dork.
There you and your hamster go again, putting the worst possible spin on an innocuous, random word.
Uh huh. :)