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Rollo had an interesting piece up this week entitled The Curse of Potential in which he discusses how many men today are not meeting their full potential due to the fact that they are trying to walk the line of security vs. increased status with the women in their lives.
In it, Jeremy states:
My only problem with this perspective is its applicability to a more traditional scenario where women actually do capitalize on their youth and beauty by marrying very young, to younger men. In such a scenario, the women are gambling to a much greater degree, marrying men decades before they’ve had time to build up to their potential.
If, hypothetically, the vast majority of women in America started locking in good mates in their very early 20s, would hypergamy simply flare up less and allow the men to reach greater potential? Is there a natural suppression to hypergamy when women marry younger? . . . .
I tend to think there’s actually an (as-yet unquantified in the red-pill universe) affect on women when they marry younger. I think that without years of fending for themselves and being lonely they see less benefit in jumping ship for the perceived mega yacht nearby. Their self-defense mechanism remains unused and hence they see the man they are committed to as more valuable. I would term this something like husband-goggles, but that sounds kind of silly.
To which I responded that what he is talking about is hypergamy satisfied. He then asks:
By what mechanism is hypergamy satisfied through a woman marrying while young (and valuable) to a younger (likely lower-value) man? I can’t see it.
I do think Jeremy is onto something when he asks if there is more of a natural suppression of hypergamy when women marry younger. Younger women are simply not going to be as experienced in the world and are going to retain more of their natural vulnerability. They will have more of the wide eyed wonder and innocence and as they become more experienced with the world (and with men) they begin to lose this.
Matt Forney had a very good article recently, The Case Against Female Self Esteem, that delved more deeply into this.
In order to love someone else, you need to be emotionally vulnerable, more so women than men (as girls are attracted to confident men). You need to be willing to open yourself up, to give yourself over to their judgment, to risk being hurt and rejected. Without this emotional openness, any relationship you have will never go beyond the infatuation stage. But girls today are told to erect gigantic walls around their hearts, cutting them off from an crucial part of their humanity.
I believe that the younger the woman, the more she will be able to be emotionally vulnerable. She will not yet have had too much time to build the wall up around her heart (though it seems that this wall is being built at an ever younger age). Because of this vulnerability and the potential for greater innocence, a masculine man with potential will be more likely to keep her that way. Without having built up this wall, the less likely she will need a man who has already realized his full potential because he will better be able to dominate and lead her without having yet reached his full status. His not yet full fledged masculinity will still be strong enough to hold her gaze to him as he works to meet his own potential with her help. In essence, while not fully realized, his masculinity and dominance will be enough to satiate her hypergamy because she doesn’t have the experience or the hardness that comes with knowing more and more masculine men. This masculinity in all it’s potential will keep her enticed and wanting more, from him.
Unfortunately, today with easy divorce and women being encouraged to always be happy, what could have been a wonderful marriage is so easily dropped for the imaginary greener grass. Not only does this make hypergamy much harder to satiate, it has taught women to wait and lose a big part of themselves that will make seeing the potential of a man far more difficult, if not impossible.
There is something else going on here as well, that the traditional young woman did not have going against her that Matt gets further into. Women have given up their natural femaleness for masculine self esteem and confidence.
[Women are] encouraged to derive self-worth not from their inherent feminine nature but from their college degree, their job or the other illusory trappings of achievement in a man’s world.
This male confidence not only aids in building up the wall around her heart, it requires a more dominate man to break these walls down. It would take a man with far more maximized potential to have any way of breaking through the masculinity she has created in herself to bring her back to the feminine in which she must be for her hypergamy to be satisfied. Hence so many women wanting the man who just gets it. These few men are the ones lined up for as they are the only ones who are able to be dominate enough to break through. However, these men are not interested in versions of themselves. They are interested in young women willing to have the confidence to be feminine, who are willing to be vulnerable and admit they not only want a man, but need a man.
One of the most commonly repeated tropes of feminists and manboobs goes something like this:
You should be happy that women nowadays are independent, because it means that they’re with you because they WANT to be with you, not because they’re dependent on you.”
This is a fundamental violation of the relationship between men and women. Part of our identity as men based in women needing us, if not necessarily in a material sense, then in an emotional one, though material and emotional vulnerability often go hand in hand. That female insecurity is a crucial ingredient for unlocking our inner masculine instincts. If a girl needs me, feels that her life would end if she were to lose me, I’m doubly inspired to be there for her, to shield her from the cruelty of the world. Frankly, it’s pretty hot. If she just wants me, could take me or leave me, my gut response is one of apathy. “Yeah, whatever babe.”
It is that female insecurity that younger women have greater potential of possessing that will bind her to a man who is not yet realized but has the great potential to do so. As this insecurity diminishes through experience and through seeking out male confidence for herself, hypergamy is going to be ever more difficult to satiate and it will take the most dominant of men to break through and while these men will be willing to add to her life experiences for one evening, they will be falling in love with the feminine girl who in unafraid of being vulnerable:
I was thinking about a couple of my past relationships when I had this epiphany; the girls I’ve loved the most were the ones who were the most insecure, the most emotionally vulnerable.
On the Rock 
Great post. I completely agree with the final quote; there something highly appealing about a woman who gives off the appearance of being highly vulnerable.
I seem to recall some other blogger speculating on the psychological effects of a woman delaying marriage, but I can’t remember who it was. What I do remember is that he theorizes that women were not equipped to make the kind of continuous long term decision making which they have been doing in modern times. As a result of this, they suffer various psychological maladies. Perhaps this would be one reason why a woman’s hypergamy filter changes as she gets older: the longer she goes without a male to lean upon, the more her brain changes to a more masculine state, and the more demanding her filters get.
“I was thinking about a couple of my past relationships when I had this epiphany; the girls I’ve loved the most were the ones who were the most insecure, the most emotionally vulnerable.”
Completely agree. I always put it as, “What can I say, I’m attracted to broken wing cases.”
i think it’s 2 sided. i do believe a younger woman getting married to a quality, older male helps her bond better. but….if she divorces later, there’s always the wall, but she’ll likely be getting child support and alimony. but if she’s loking to marry again, she might find it difficult. i see this happen all the time with divorced mother mid 20’s and above.
the second being a woman that plays kesha during her youth, then persues a career, THEN decides to get married has built up a greater amount of hypergamy; making it harder for her to land a man since the guys in her dating pool and going after the younger women (sucessfully).
however, BOTH women, in search of a new mate grow either bitter or depressed at how difficult a time they are having. then, MEN are simply villified or they run the standard “there are no good men out there.”
i ALWAYS tell guys to avoid marriage until they hit their 30’s.
I wasn’t extremely young when I started dating my husband, 22 and he was 23, but with potential, young men also have excitement going for them. My husband was a pilot, rock climber, scuba diver, he fought competitively in high school. He was fun to be with and always had something going on.
Even though we are old and he doesn’t do a lot of the physical stuff anymore, that’s still the way I think of him: as exciting, fun, and always having something going on. I guess that I probably have Wife Goggles.
That’s why I think that young should marry young. Both of them. That way the man will remember his wife as fresh and young and the woman will remember her husband as exciting and on the verge of conquering the world. But that may just be me 🙂
Another quality post as usual, Stingray.
It’s like she becomes an alpha widow to herself. She’s her own alpha and few men can compare.
Tempest:
It’s not just you. I agree with that. I married relatively young (22) and my husband was also rather young (23), and we have this whole fun history together when I was young and hot and he was (as you say) exciting and energetic. We’re just boring old middle-aged parents now, but I think our past together influences how we see each other.
In practice, the wall that requires a more maximized man to break through doesn’t get approached not necessarily because the man doesn’t want a version of himself, but I think because it’s not worth it. What escapes some women who want the high value man is that if the man is high value, how is he not going to know that he’s high value.
He’s high value, but he’s supposed chip his way through like he doesn’t have much value. I think he’ll pass.
But you are correct in the younger the woman, the more open to expressing and admitting to wanting a man, which I never considered being vulnerable, but I guess it’s part of it.
Donalgraeme,
It would be very interesting to compare a young female brain to her older counter part and then compare that to a man’s and see what it shows. It would also be very interesting to then compare that older female brain to a woman the same age from 100-150 years ago.
Jai Dudge,
I like that. Then if, you choose, you can help her to fly.
So the argument seems to be that hypergamy is satisfied by allowing women to retain natural vulnerability. My mind tries to word it differently, to say that hypergamy isn’t “satisfied” by this, but it is calmed / prevented from inflammation.
Does this not say that hypergamy, while innate, is only at high levels today in the average woman because of the masculinization of women? Is there then a simple relationship between how masculine a woman has had to become, and how hypergamous she is/can-be?
Seems to me there has to be.
MEN are simply villified or they run the standard “there are no good men out there.”
It’s easier to blame men than it is what they have spent their whole lives pursuing and then discovering it still hasn’t gotten them what they want. Never underestimate the hamster! 😉
Duh. Welcome to my world Dear.
young men also have excitement going for them.
That’s a really good point, Tempest. And younger women are more likely to find the goings on of a young man exciting rather than childish. And it is exciting to watch a 20 something man do things like you describe. I met my husband when we were both 20 and he was incredibly thrilling. He still is, even though he doesn’t do all he did at 20. However, I still know that he can, maybe not to the same degree but he’s as good once as he ever was and that is very exciting. 😉
SunshineMary,
Thank you. She is her own alpha and I have to wonder if trying to find an ever more masculine man is not only part in parcel of needing a more dominate man than herself, but also a quest to find femininity?Because ultimately, finding a man who is willing to dominate her, one that she actually accepts, will lead her to submitting to him. This desire for a more dominate man than herself (Where is my good man? There are none left?) but one who will treat her as an equal is an impossibility. They have set themselves up for the ultimate failure.
What escapes some women who want the high value man is that if the man is high value, how is he not going to know that he’s high value.
He’s high value, but he’s supposed chip his way through like he doesn’t have much value. I think he’ll pass.
I’m not sure I understand this. Are you saying that he’s supposed to do that because that’s what women expect from men today? I agree with this and he would never be able to chip through even if for some reason he did wish to try.
the wall that requires a more maximized man to break through doesn’t get approached not necessarily because the man doesn’t want a version of himself, but I think because it’s not worth it.
My question would be why does he find it’s not worth it? To put it another way, would men find it more worth their time to break through the walls of a young, pretty feminine woman who would compliment him but would play hard to get for various reasons? If she was holding back to wait for commitment, or for a wedding would more men find the time and effort worth their while? On the other hand, if the reason for the wall is masculine confidence (which tends to leads to combativeness in women) the reason seems clear that there is no compliment, so what’s the point?
Jeremy,
Calmed/prevented is probably just as good. I will tell you that as a woman it feels like satisfaction. But it does also feel very calming.
Does this not say that hypergamy, while innate, is only at high levels today in the average woman because of the masculinization of women?
I wouldn’t say this is the only but certainly a large reason. I was thinking that promiscuity is also a very big reason for it, but one could argue that that is part of the masculinization. I would say the answer to your last question is yes, there is a relationship between how masculine a woman is and how hypergamous she can be. I also think that this can be broken through should any man choose to, but she will need to learn to relent as well.
I don’t know how you do it Danny, but in some ways, it has to make your job easier. A busy hamster is easy to poke with a stick. 😉
It’s an interesting thought, hypergamy being subverted/diverted by this sort of thing. Is it really nipped in the bud? Is it satisfied by “wife goggles” being put on early enough in a lifetime? It could be that it’s satisfied by his actual growth, in that he becomes more and that satisfies her internal drive for more.
The big problem, of course, is one which you’ll see come back as a preprogrammed response to the suggestion of a man’s potential: What if he wastes his potential? Then I’m stuck with a loser!
Motivation, dearies. Assuming you aren’t simply choosing the biggest asshole you think you can reform (which guarantees you’re an idiot who deliberately chose solely for lulz ‘n’ tingles), men are easily motivated to rebuild the world for you. Odd how much resentment there is that she should have to apply herself in some way aside from merely existing, but I’ve seen it repeatedly. You can inspire him to the impossible or convince him it doesn’t matter, and the actual effort involved is miniscule. Do it. And watch him become.
That is one thing that often women fail to completely grasp, the tremendous power of motivation that they possess. Many women seem to default to nagging when they don’t get their way, which is frankly infantile. The smart woman realizes that her greatest power is in subtle inspiration.
Babies cry about it,
The masculine sucks it up and deals with it,
The feminine gracefully makes do in front of people who want to see her more comfortable.
It’s an interesting thought, hypergamy being subverted/diverted by this sort of thing. Is it really nipped in the bud? Is it satisfied by “wife goggles” being put on early enough in a lifetime?
I’m glad you asked this because I don’t want to throw anyone off with this. It will not be completely satisfied by marrying young. A man cannot just sit back because at one point in his youth, when he met his wife, he was exciting. We hear stories about this alot from men who say they were alpha when they met their wives and then went full on beta and she lost interest. I think the best way to put it is that if he marries a young and vulnerable woman and they grow together, he hypergamy will be satisfied (of course there are exceptions, especially with divorce being so easy and our culture teaching women what it does). Meaning, he started out more dominant and as they grew together, he stayed that way. As you said, should he waste his potential, hypergamy will not be satisfied.
What women need to take out of this is two fold. 1) stay feminine. Most women will lead happier lives being vulnerable to his masculinity. 2) Women are not meant to go along for the ride, we never were. We expect men to maximize their potential and it is our duty to help them do this. We can’t live in fear that should he reach his potential he will divorce us and go for the younger woman again. That’s the kicker, for all of this “confidence” so many women live in fear and the stability they crave they are depending on being given to them. They will not work toward any of it for themselves. Now, many will say “I do work for stability myself in that I have a job and I contribute”, but that is not really the type of stability we crave. We crave it from our man who is far more likely to give us what we crave when we give to him what he needs from us, unending and enthusiastic support. When most men receive this from a woman, they want to stick with her through thick and thin, no matter what. It is time women work to give this same thing back toward their men.
Jeremy,
I would take your last three lines to this fourth, The feminine not only makes do, but builds up the people who want to see he more comfortable. The big thing is, she mustn’t do this because she wants to be made more comfortable. She must do it because that is the job of a wife. We support and inspire and we boost the ego of our men. So many women think this is weakness and it is anything but.
Quite so. This combination of selfless building up of another who wishes to build us up is neatly summarized as “love.”
Stingray’s replies and Jeremy’s as well remind me of something I need to ask about:
I have a friend who is young, strong, fun, absurdly handsome, and with the wicked grin and sense of humor that comes from a generally bad boy going genuinely good. His attraction level is such that middle-aged women are inspired to do frankly more-than-creepy things around him. (That they have no compunction about this is for another topic.) He has a sweet, feminine, girlfriend who’s a perfect match for him, almost equally spiritual, and enormously innocent. Being young and foolish, she freaked out and left him briefly, and now that they’re back together they’re working on improving themselves for the long term. So far, so good.
He’s working through Men, Women, and Relationships, by John Gray of Mars & Venus fame. I cringed. Now, Gray’s not as bad as His Needs, Her Needs, by Willard Harley. That one is, to be kind about it, the biggest pile of self-defeating crap advice I have ever come across. Gray’s an improvement. However, as one who’s still trying to repair the damage caused by a boatload of limp, well meaning, tingle-killing nonsense, I am rather worried. My young friend isn’t quite ready to down the spiky little pill yet, so discretion and the voice of reasonable experience is the path to take.
In short (too late, I know): How should I best warn him about the wise-seeming ideas Gray recommends? What could give me leverage, by specific example(s) of what will damage their relationship in the long run? I’m sure Martel, Dalrock and Rollo would have good notions, and I would love their advice; but the point of view of an awake woman would be handy too, and there are several in the readership here.
It’s not weakness.
Hell, let us look at the last 100 years as an example.
100 years ago, the frontier has just died 3 decades earlier (earth was basically fully colonized) and humans were just beginning powered flight. In the span of time since then, the furthest we’ve put living humans is the moon. Right now there are thousands of scientists and engineers who would tell anyone that we are more prepared now to start colonizing Mars than we were prepared to visit the Moon in 1960 (the time of Kennedys speech). As far as raw exploration goes (a very masculine activity), humanity has flatlined.
Now, lets look at all the innovations in the home we’ve had since then…
The first electric vacuum cleaners.. about 1900
Clothes washing machines in the home… 1910s or thereabouts
Dishwashers in the home, 1920s
Refridgerators in the home (no more cooking daily)… 1920s
Microwave ovens… 1940s
Tupperware… 1940s
Breadmakers, 1986
etc…
These days the big push is for automating as much as can be done, with robotic vacuums, fridges that keep track of your inventory and order stuff, microwaves that sense your dish’s temperature/evenness,etc..etc…In short, home-making has turned into a cakewalk. All motherly activities have been mechanized to free up her time…
And women still have trouble realizing the motivational power they have? Any fool can see that the mother of most of our major civilizing inventions in the last century has been… MOTHERS. The economics of why this is should also be obvious, mom were often gifted control the pocketbook, and if they weren’t they found a way to “inspire” their man to get that shiny new appliance.
If mothers were instead asking for a way to harvest diamonds from asteroids while vacationing on phobos, I have to believe that men would find a way to do so.
Sounds poetic doesn’t it?
John,
I’m not familiar at all with any of those books so it’s hard to say what could give you some leverage. Can you give me some of what Gray says in his book that your friend might take to heart that is not true? It will be easier for me to give you some advice that way.
Your “satisfied hypergamy” is a brilliant formulation. Please expand on it, because your excitable colleagues in the manosphere seem to have no frame of reference for it. It is an article of their creed to disbelieve in its existence. “Hypergamy don’t care,” etc.
And once they learn to call “hypergamy” by its proper name, “concupiscence,” they will be able to apply it more broadly, more deeply, and more accurately.
The PUAs and MGTOWs are at the end of their rope. They have nothing new to say because they have brought these venerable concepts to the limit within their narrow, practical applicability to the modern sexual dynamic. The smarter ones will drill deeper, but few of them are smart in the way that you are — your humility makes you ask the right questions, which allows you to discern between the faith of experience and the permanent truths.
A woman’s “hypergamy” is considered evil in these parts because 1) it is a critique of feminism, which is evil indeed, and 2) a ceaseless chasing of desires is more destructive to the female sex than to the male; i.e., girl with many lays is a slut, guy with many lays is a stud.
Only the most experienced and successful PUAs have witnessed the similar destructiveness of, for lack of a better term, “male hypergamy.” But it takes a great act of courage, insight, and, above all, honesty to judge the consequences of an incessant pursuit of desire rightly. Every ancient philosopher identified and engaged this eternal human problem of unchecked, self-destructive desire.
Of course, desire is not all sexual, but such is the fixation of the community rediscovering this age-old wisdom through trial and error. The way to advance past the groin is to understand that concupiscence is not a uniquely feminine trait, nor is it exclusively sexual. It is the human condition, the cause of the Fall, and the keeper of the fallen.
“You made us for yourself, O Lord, and therefore our hearts are restless until they rest in you.” That is the only truly “satisfied hypergamy.” Your insight is that pursuing the chimera of Bigger, Better, More is not just an illusion — a “grass is greener” syndrome — it is also a destructive impulse in itself. In our dissatisfaction we pursue other idols that are just as empty as the ones we pursued yesterday and make us dissatisfied today. The solution is not to satisfy oneself with an inferiority, nor is it to pursue the appearance of perfection. The solution is to pursue that which has already pursued us our entire lives — the Sublime, the Ineffable, the Love of God, which is manifested to greater and lesser degrees through our fellow, flawed human beings.
Matt
Jeremy,
The irony being that there is every possibility that without those advances things might be much different today.
**And I’m not knocking them! My dishwasher broke today and I am doing dishes by hand. I love all of those advances, but if women had to focus more on their home life by still having to spend more active time there, how might things be different? The flip side is, there is still so much one can find to do around the home that is so worthwhile, but if you don’t search for it, you won’t find it.
And women still have trouble realizing the motivational power they have?
Not doing those things around the house, women have lost sight of that power because they don’t get to see it in action like they once did. The look of contentment and bliss on a man’s face when he bites into a home cooked meal is inspiration to re-awaken that power. But too many never get to see that because they haven’t taken that first step.
Jai Dudge,
It certainly does. I imagine that you get a lot of pretty nasty looks with that one. However, I would bet that you get quite a few goo-goo eyes as well. 😉
Thank you, Matt. I’ll try to expand on it at some point.
I’m not sure that hypergamy will ever be called concupiscence given it’s religious connotations but it’s worth exploring. It’s slowing coming out with some of the more prominent men writing about their burnout and even further in their continued search for . . . something. It will be hard to break away from the word hypergamy too, because it narrows down concupiscence into a more pinpointed term. In a lot of ways, it makes it easier to see what is happening to the people in our culture to have it begin in a more focused manner. Though, I agree that concupiscence covers our culture more completely, it is almost too broad for people to really be able to see it for what is . . . yet. People are starting see difference aspect of it, and at some point in the near future, it will start to come together into the whole it in which it was always meant to be understood.
I have been mulling a concupiscence post for many, many months and it always seems like such a huge undertaking that my brain goes back to focus on one faction of it rather than the whole. It is easier to examine and discuss, but I haven’t forgotten about it.
Haha indeed, for the former I usually switch it out with a more palatable term like “shy” or “introverted”.
No. While I agree that hypergamy is an imperfect description of what is at play here, concupiscence is not accurate either. It is more than just ardent desire, it is specifically an ardent desire to mate with the highest value (or to be even more accurate, the most attractive) man who is available.
This is a natural desire, and it makes sense from a biological perspective. Alas, our civilization poisons the minds of our young, and one result of this is that women’s filters for male attractiveness are calibrated improperly.
It is not just you Tempest. That is the way things should be. If I should be fortunate enough to marry and have children, I will try my hardest to ensure that they can enjoy the blessings of a young marriage.
@ Water Cannon Boy
Your handle reminds me of something…hmmm…no, nevermind, I’m probably just imagining it.
🙂
My question would be why does he find it’s not worth it? To put it another way, would men find it more worth their time to break through the walls of a young, pretty feminine woman who would compliment him but would play hard to get for various reasons?
Risk / reward – your question presumes a positive outcome.
The guy doesn’t know what’s behind “Door #2” – will it be a lifetime or happiness with a submissive wife, or “more of the same”? Why should he put up with her crap on the chance of getting a diamond when he can see other “candidates” that are potentially just as well suited, and don’t require “explosives” to get past their “shields”?
Donal,
That’s a good point. Hypergamy, when controlled, is not necessarily a bad thing. When it is wallowed in and abused, that’s when it goes so badly.
Why should he put up with her crap on the chance of getting a diamond when he can see other “candidates” that are potentially just as well suited, and don’t require “explosives” to get past their “shields”?
For a guy just looking for a good time, this makes a lot of sense. However, for a man who is looking for a wife, would not those feminine shields indicate more potential? The various reasons I am talking about are things like making him wait for sex and playing coy rather than being so forward and leaving nothing to the imagination. A bit of feminine give and take, if you will, but with walls up to protect herself until marriage or at least a LTR. These still might take explosives to get through, but would it not indicate more of a reward rather than a risk? And wouldn’t a man risk more for a woman like this who indicates better chances of being that diamond?
It’s more then risk/ reward, it is also return on investment. Most the young men I know don’t believe they get a decent return for their efforts. It’s a lot to deal with, a lot of shields to break through for no verifiable improvement in chances of success or happiness.
All the things listed that make life easier for a housewife also makes life easier for a bachelor.
Stingray,
When men talk about women putting up a shield it’s when they act masculine with confidence, bitchiness, and whatever else. Basically, their behavior puts up a wall between them and a man and is directly undesirable for behavior that you look for in a long term mate.
A woman that acts feminine we do not perceive as having a shield because she will have a pleasant demeaner et al. For example, if she guards herself like a Christian woman may guard her chastity and heart before marriage she will not be perceived as having a shield if she doesn’t act like a horrible person about it.
This clearly falls into the latter.
The problem most men have is when these women are promiscuous… so they would one night stand some alpha jerk boy while they make random nice guy wait which is a clear insult to random nice guy.
Or, on the other hand, even if she is guarding her heart her actions show that she is not feminine such as nuclear rejections.
All the things listed that make life easier for a housewife also makes life easier for a bachelor.
That’s a really good point and one many women do not consider. It made me jump back a bit, myself. Women need to get this idea out of their head that simply being female is a reward/return on investment in and of itself. It’s very frustrating that this is so hard for so many people to see. What’s more, having a career is NOT a reward because, most likely< THE MAN ALREADY HAS ONE! Women need to bring to the table more than what the man already has and sex isn't going to be enough. Not when the chances are too high that that is going to just dry up as well.
Deep Strength,
I would have thought that, especially today, that a lot of men would consider trying to break through the chastity or protecting her heart barrier would be considered a wall as well. Though a wall that would be worth it because of the type of person she has the potential of being. But it makes sense that a lot of men would not consider that a wall at all, but rather a plus.
It’s a good point for women reading to understand as well. One can show vulnerability while still protecting her heart. There is a line and a definite push/pull, but a line nonetheless. I would bet that playing close to that line is what a lot of men talk about when they say they want a bit of a challenge or that they don’t want a woman to be a doormat. She can be very coy and gently tease without ever crossing that line and at the same time, she can still send out very bright signals that she is definitely interested.
The lost art of flirtation.
Basically, what men don’t want to deal with is fitness / shit testing. It’s tedious and it wears us down because it’s just work that doesn’t even really have a reward except temporary appeasement of her hypergamy. No win answers = No fun (unless you know how to deal with them which most men don’t, but even when you do it typically requires some thought). “Does this dress make me look fat?” and “Do you love me?” are classics.
PUAs don’t care because they only have to do it for a temporary time to get sexual access before they drop her for the next woman. Pump and dump.
However, for those of us looking for a wife once we see that the shield is there we know it’s probably a waste of time because it will never go away unless there’s a drastic change of behavior. Drastic change of behavior in women is a fat chance in today’s environment.
Men don’t want to go to work to come home to more work.
A bachelor with a decent income can hire out everything a wife use to do without the hassle of dealing with a wife.
I’ve also made arrangements where women have taken care of the domestic chores for room, board and a small amount of spending money.
I’m probably one of the more domestically inclined single men out there. It is incredibly easy to be a bachelor these days. Many of us are happy with beer, pizza and the NFL ticket. Which removes even more pressure to wife some gal up.
Seriously. I want it to be a relief to come home. Solace, and not nagging, is what would lead me to marry.
@ Stingray
Exactly my point. This is where Titus 2 is important:
Older women have a vital role in teaching younger women how to curb the excesses of their behaviors (just like older men teach the same to younger men). Sadly, this isn’t being done anymore.
“Older women have a vital role in teaching younger women how to curb the excesses of their behaviors (just like older men teach the same to younger men). Sadly, this isn’t being done anymore.”
I think this is very true, but it’s also true that Fathers are not encouraging their daughters to pursue marriage and family as the number one priority, as opposed to having careers and “getting ahead”. I think it would help young girls to choose younger marriage if they knew they had their Father’s approval. If a Father actively discourages young marriage, it’s difficult for a young girl to act against that. I know that for myself, I sought my Dad’s approval more than my Mothers – it was a slight edge, but was there nonetheless. This is really just a very long winded way of stating that Fathers can have profound influence in matter also,
That is very true Maeve. Fathers do have a significant role to play. Some of the biggest pushers of feminism are fathers with daughters but no sons. They often times push their daughters towards more masculine roles, in order to gain the kind of bragging rights which are normally associated with sons.
for a man who is looking for a wife, would not those feminine shields indicate more potential?
I suspect our definition of “shields” is somewhat different.
There’s nothing with a woman having healthy boundaries, who has a (reasonable) line she won’t cross, and the like. As long as she’s providing positive reinforcement and encouragement – “breadcrumbs” if you will – to show that the game’s still afoot, that the relationship is making progress, and he’s not being screwed around for search time and resources – that’s fine.
I’ve heard some women say “he chased me until I caught him” – and there’s a lot of truth in that. Good “prey” know they’re in the driver’s seat if they play to a man’s “hunting” instincts, and so draws him in to the desired end for both of them. That’s how the matchmaking game should be played! It’s also why women who “try too hard” will fail – where’s the “fun” in being with a person who takes all the intrigue out of the chase?
If, on the other hand, her shields are along the lines of “I’m a woman and you should be happy just being allowed in my presence”, having a defensive attitude, a chip on her shoulder, unreasonable expectations, trust issues, doesn’t provide a good cost / benefit response to his efforts, and stuff like that – no thanks!
In summary, she has to provide some sign that she has the kind of qualities a guy would want in his life from the outside. As time goes on, more and deeper signs of those qualities should be slowly revealed as the relationship develops, and the people get to know, understand, and trust each other.
arg – replace “from the outside” with “from the outset”
Many of us are happy with beer, pizza and the NFL ticket.
More women need to understand this. Sure, the shaming language will come, but it doesn’t make it untrue. If the woman doing the shaming gets laughed at and left behind so a guy can go quiety drink a beer and watch the game the point will get across. It will be a very painful loss.
Maeve and Donal,
That is true about Fathers and it’s not just because they want their daughters to get good careers and get ahead, or because they didn’t have boys. I know many fathers (mine included) who were afraid for their daughters being divorced and left penniless. I was told that it was so important to get my degree in case my husband ever left me. I needed a way to be able to make money for myself and the kids and the only way to do that was go to college. He bought into the scare tactics as well and did this to protect me. I got very lucky and met my husband at school and came out debt free (he also made it very clear that I had better work through high school because I was paying for at least half of college myself) and I think this worked for more than a few women of my generation. But. . . it paves the way for the millennials to get junk degrees and go into huge debt today . . . . and, they’re not meeting men at college and marrying them.
A Northern Observer,
Thank you for explaining that. Our definition of shields was different. Your’s and Deep Strengths definition make a lot more sense (I have read too many PUA sites). Women have lost the art of flirtation. It used to be something we picked up at a very young age (and used on our fathers) and this no longer is that case. I should write a post about flirtation, but wifely flirtation and young flirtation are different and it’s been a very long time since I’ve used the latter!
I wouldn’t say it’s they lost the art of flirtation. It’s just that it’s covered over with manipulation, entitlement, and unreasonable expectations. Princess syndrome.
Once you break through any man or woman’s defenses and get them to laugh, they have more genuine reactions and can banter back and forth. This is why “game” can be summed in one word — charisma.
The problem is that most women have those defenses up now that only go down for a short period of time and almost instantaneously come back if you make one wrong move. I said earlier that men don’t want to work to come home to more work… and the reason it’s more work is because you’re walking on eggshells waiting for the disapproval/blow up/etc.
Of course, that’s the differentiation between “alpha” and “beta” man mindset (aka if you’ve already feel like you’re walking on eggshells then you’ve already lost frame)… but that’s a whole other topic.
Princess syndrome. I’ve seen it. It’s not pretty.
I was thinking that flirtation is lost because you read so many men who say that the push pull is no longer there. That girl game is not nearly what it used to be. I’m thinking of those who say that women either jump right into bed with a guy and that’s how she shows she’s interested, but for those who don’t wish to do that, they are at a loss on how to show interests without jumping straight to sex. That seems to lacking today, which is sad because it’s a lot of fun.
Now, don’t get me wrong, because banter is wonderful. Though I’m not sure it’s the best indicator of interest as men and women banter is a rather natural part of male/female interaction even when sex is off the table.
Donal, I agree that not only do they “often times push their daughters towards more masculine roles, in order to gain the kind of bragging rights which are normally associated with sons”, but in some cases go further in encouraging less feminine behavior.
As an example (and I am not trying to criticize my H here) – my husband has tattoos; our older daughter has expressed a desire to get tattoos herself – and her Dad is not actively discouraging this – which I think he should. His GF has multiple tattoos, so I think she interprets this as something he approves of.
It’s a little difficult for me because I think it’s a mistake for her to get one, but I don’t want to gainsay what her Dad tells her. I think she is looking to strengthen her connection with him – she wants to share something special with him. And I can understand it – she wants and needs his approval.
This may be redundant because I haven’t read all the responses, but everybody has some sort of wall at the beginning. But think of going a man visiting a woman. One scene, man walks up to the house. Woman greets him, says I don’t want to invite you in right now but we can hang out on the porch. He doesn’t get passed the walls that make the front door and the house, but is still made to feel comfortable and is invited to still stay a while.
Other scene, with barbed wire, extra high fence, a woman still yells out a window “what you doing, what you looking for, better not step on my lawn!!”. And he hasn’t left the sidewalk yet.
The woman in the window will still be mystified that he keeps mosieing down the street. And may even complain that he didn’t try hard enough.
Maeve,
That’s a tough spot for your daughter and for you. Really tough and I know that I would have wanted to do something like that when I was a teenager too, with my dad. Is there anything else that they have in common that she could share with him instead? Learn one of his hobbies?
WCB,
I love that analogy. It really hits this whole thing home in a big way. Warmth and civility can be given to any man, even a strange one you just meet and she can still be perfectly protected.
Stingray,
I’m still thinking on what I might be able to do. Am very open to any suggestions.
One of the things routinely forgotten by the man up and marry/ shaming lauange crowd is a man’s very human desire for happiness.
Ton,
I don’t think it’s forgotten so much as misunderstood. Women project onto men their own happiness and believe that a man should be happy manning up. The men running in this crowd either are happy or have convinced themselves that they are because they believe they should be as well. It’s a form of male solipsism, I believe. It goes back to the whole equality nonsense in that women have difficulty understanding that what makes men and women happy are going to be different things.
Maeve,
All I can think of right now is making sure she realizes the commitment she wants to make. They do not look very good after the years go by, having kids tends to alter them depending on placement and whatever she gets is forever. FOREVER.
I always wanted a tattoo when younger but could never decide on something that I knew I would be happy within 20 years so I never got one. Today, I’m glad that it worked out this way.
Having said that, I can completely understand her reason for wanting one. Bonding with Dad is a very big deal. What’s coming to mind is learning about the things that he is interested in that she can do with him and spend time with him that way. And, I also think you’re right in that you don’t want to undermine her father in all of this. In the long run though, she will get so much more out of hobbies with her dad than some ink on her skin. This is a tough spot.
@Maeve,
You probably won’t be able to talk her out of getting a tattoo, but you might be able to postpone it. Especially if her dad got his at an older age than she is now. Even if he just tells her he did for the sake of getting her to wait.
Every girl that’s had a good relationship with her father has learned how to flirt, learned the playful charm that goes on between male and female interactions, gets confidence, and a big chunk of their self esteem from their fathers. And if they don’t get it from their fathers, they’ll look for it in bits and pieces from older males that they have or encounter in their lives. And I actually should simultaneously instead of if, because there will be times when they wonder if somebody besides their dad thinks they got it going on(so to speak).
A lot of people don’t like to admit it because there’s a sexual element to it and they also don’t like to admit to a male influence having something to do with a woman turning out with good female qualities.
So I’m not surprised she wants a tattoo. Her father with tattoos has his attention on a woman with tattoos. What he likes is makes her more likeable.
One other thought, him just telling her no will seem hypocritical, which might make here wonder, did mom put him up to this.
Perhaps you’re correct Stingray or maybe it’s a matter of misery loves company. The phrase has been around for a good long time now ans explains much of life.
I don’t see it playing out like you do but then again all the married men I know, even the rare happy ones, say they’d not repeat the experience, don’t encourage men to marry etc etc. I think the man up and marry crowd is vocal but small in number
Stingray and WCB,
I really appreciate the thoughts and suggestions. I might also talk to Hannah – she has commented numerous times about the pain of having her tattoo removed. Maybe I could raise that as point to be considered.
I agree that it would be so much better to share an activity with her Dad – it’s hard because they don’t get nearly the amount of time together than they should, but I know he wants the very best for her too. I may suggest that he take her shooting – they both like it and that might be something that can be their thing.
And Stingray – I apologize for hijacking the thread – but thank you all the same. I know Hannah comments here sometimes – would you mind forwarding my e-mail address to her?
Have her watch shows like ink master, tattoo nightmare and bad ink? I’m tatted up and those shows give me pause about new work
Thanks Ton, I will do that. It’s not that I’m anti-tattoo per se, but I think if she were to get any, it should be after she’s married and it’s something her husband supports. I don’t have any myself, but I’m kind of a wuss.
Hi Stingray, Hi Ton, Hi Maeve 🙂
Great post Stingray – sorry this isn’t on topic though!
Tattoos are a marker. Christians don’t understand this. Ok most Christians don’t understand this.
A girl with a tattoo sends a message to the world saying she’s rebelling from the straight and narrow. This is a dangerous message for any girl to be sending. It’s a wild world and it’s going to eat the tattooed girl alive.
Different story when a guy sends a message to say he’s a Rebel – then it says he’s doing life on his own terms. Not saying tattoos are good for anyone but certainly there’s a huge difference.
A male rebel isn’t vulnerable, but a female rebelling sure is.
A tattoo on a girl shows that the girl is off track and accessible.
“Like a gold ring in a pig’s snout, is a beautiful woman who lacks discretion.”
Proverbs 11 v 22
One of my very first comments in the manosphere was on this topic… I spent a wee while searching it out and have found it for you Maeve 🙂
http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/what-is-the-manosphere/#comment-83192
A wise man once told me to get a painting, instead of marking my body….
that I could admire it on the wall… and when that stage of my life has passed, my history wouldn’t be etched permanently about me.
Good advice I now pass onto others!
Shame I didn’t listen to it myself, and take my father up on his painting offer!
We live and learn… (well some of us do, but that’s a different topic!)
Anyway – when I got my tattoo it was deeply unpopular and anti-social-norms to get them. I thought it expressed my anger to the world while also preserving life because one of my sisters designed identical tattoos for us to wear on our legs to remember each other by if one of us made an early exit…… (long long sentence right there but you get the internal justification process I went through before marking my body!)
Well now tattoos are on every Tom Dick and Harry and every freaking Jane Doe that’s out there! Rebellion is encouraged, accepted, promoted.
Sign of the times people.
Meanwhile I became convicted of showing my tattoo through a series of explosive events which made me realise that despite the knowledge I had of my tattoo being in my past and that it holds no condemnation for me now, no STRANGER knows that story and so could theoretically think:
“Hannah’s a Christian and SHE has a tattoo – I think I’ll go and get myself some nice ‘Jesus Ink’ to honour God”
Not making this up – I know it happens!
My lovely grandparents gave me some money to start laser tattoo removal treatment and so far I’ve spent over 3 thousand (N.Z) dollars fading the sucker. Oh and it hurts like crap and I’m the kind of girl that used to tell myself to ‘toughen up’ while self-piercing!
I’m about halfway.
My father and one of my brothers both separately offered to burn it off for a cheaper/faster result!
Turns out I’m not that tough afterall 🙂
So I’ll continue the slow, painful and expensive process of laser removal
In the meantime during summer I cover my leg with skin-coloured bandage. It does the job.
A tattoo might cost a girl more than she thinks.
Maeve I’d suggest the best thing that might put your daughter off getting a tattoo is for her to learn the differences between life as a male and life as a female.
It is not the same!
What is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the gander.
What your daughter admires in her father, is not what she will be admired for.
If a girl could be taught not to try to keep up/compete/be the same as men – she’d save herself a lot of confusion and possible heartache.
Could her father teach her about the complimentary natures of males being masculine, and females being feminine?
The influence of a father is huge.
My dad made doughnuts from scratch when I was 12 and then said he enjoyed a black coffee to offset the sweetness. He let me have a little coffee with him. I’ve been a long black fan ever since!
If a father can teach his daughter what he finds desirable/admirable/sweet in women, then perhaps she can imitate those traits rather than showing respect towards her father by copying his masculine traits?
Good luck Maeve, I really hope she doesn’t go ahead with it.
Thanks Hannah. You’ve (all) given me some real food for thought and I greatly appreciate it. 🙂
The man IS the wall around her heart.
The man is the guardian and she must offer something worth guarding.. She doesn’t have to build a flimsy wall that won’t protect her but will simply cut her off from life. The man gets a haven from battle and the world. He cannot find it if her heart is not bare to only him.
I know, we married very young. I was young and beautiful once. My Husband is not the first, nor last man to ask me to marry him. Others tried to steal me away when we were young and poor. I fended them off. He knows this.
Our family needs him to provide. We look to him. He is our protector. That is very hard on him. However, it is hard like lifting weights is hard. The more you do it, the stronger you get. The right kind of strong. Steroids does not strengthen all of you, it is an illusion. Protecting and providing for those depending on you builds you in all areas. You get closer to God and He helps you.
Now he fends women off and I am grateful for that. I appreciate him and have trained this into my children. I tell my children every day when he leaves for work that this is how he says “I love you” to them. They will even answer others when they say “Where is your Father?”
They say, “Oh, he is saying I love you to me. He is at work.”
Hypergamy can work in your favor. You naturally progress in ways that fulfill this for her if you come together young.
>The man IS the wall around her heart.
This hits it on the nose.
More: And this is how it should be. Men are FANTASTIC at being walls. A failure of empathy is an ASSET in this case. This is why we turn carrots into guns. Women likely have a hard time imagining how much Fat Joe in Accounting would like to be part of SEAL Team Six. Like all gendered traits, in the right circumstances and used wisely, this is a feature, not a bug.
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