A new commenter, Jean, has left a comment on my last post that would be better addressed here. I’m going to break her comment down to better make my points but will be quoting it in it’s entirety. Here is the original.
I know that many of you will attack me for my opinion, but this article, the video, and some of the comments here have really upset me. I didn’t realize that people actually devalued women and our purpose like that. This is unbelievable. I did not write to start an argument, so I will not reply back to anyone.
We don’t devalue women. We believe that women’s value is much different from men’s, not less. To be very clear right from the get go, your understanding of submission is wrong. Submission does not equate to doormat. It equates to second in command. A Queen to his King or First Mate to his Captain. This is not the position of a doormat.
But here is what I needed to say:
Marriage is not just about submission. A video from a woman telling how she is submissive is so not necessary, unless there is also a video with a husband telling how he honors and sacrifices his life for his wife. This practice sets a dangerous precedent for young females to follow. These young females see older women as the wise females, ones who are supposed to make sense. But some of us don’t have much, and in fact, some of us are downright foolish. Women ought to know better than to allow themselves to focus on submisson only, unless they will also tell men what their roles are. Why would a woman make a video about submission? What is the purpose?
The whole of society tells men what is expected of them every single day. To such an extent that society regularly thinks them fools with the smarmy and much smarter wife running the show. It’s degrading and things like this are the norm.
As to women looking to wise older women, I truly hope you are correct. Only, what most older women are telling their younger counterparts today is anything but wise. It is not wise to tell women to put of marriage past their most fertile years (many, many women yearn for children only to find out they waited too long). It is not wise to tell women that sleeping with as many men as they wish is ok (most women are NOT happy doing this and many will privately admit so. WE AREN”T MEN). It is not ok to teach women that men value the same exact traits in women that we find attractive in men. Men value pretty, kind, helpful and fun in the women they commit to though they will have sex with simply sexy. Most are not too interested in committing to snarky, hard women. Intelligence, while it has some value is not that important to men. They would rather have a less intelligent woman who respects him than an intelligent woman who is full of disrespect and throws her education up like a wall.
You ask the purpose of making this video? To help women to understand that what they think of as submission is not true. Many find that through submission their marriages are vastly happier and healthier. They find that their men are happier and stronger and many discover their lost femininity and find real peace and joy.
When a man marries a woman who comes into their relationship having a successful career, her own residence, and her own money in the bank, then that woman is “allowing” him to lead, because before the marriage, she was an independent woman and was not looking for someone to “support her”, contrary to what men alwys say. She can really live without a man . . . Men are not doing women favors by marrying them. Men, you all have got to stop telling lies on women, that “we are looking for someone to support us”. This is soooo lame and sooo untrue. Men are not the only ones with jobs.
Of course women can live without a man and of course women have jobs. Everyone sees this everyday. The question is, how do most women prefer to live? Support is not merely monetary. But even if we are talking simply money, most of the time if someone stays home, it is usually the wife (because she wants to) and he fully supports her and the kids. If she does work, because of women’s work preferences, he will often make more than her and therefore make her quality of living much higher than it would have been should she have stayed single.
. . . Besides all that, women do not get much out of marriage, because we do all the work. The men get the sex they so desperately want, they get someone to dominate, someone to cook meals, someone to raise the couple’s children, someone to do all the laundry, and someone to do the housework. If women are to do all the submission stuff, yet all the physical work, then, what the heck is the purpose of a woman getting married? Women are better off, staying single.
If you think that sex, laundry, cooking, raising children, and housework is all there is to the work of marriage then you are sadly mistaken. Do you think the responsibility of a leader is so easy? That making the life changing decisions that will effect the most important people in one’s life are made on a whim? That men are so callous as to just flippantly dominate without thought to those whom he loves more than himself? No. The laundry, the housework, the support, the cooking, raising the children, and the sex (you make it sound like a chore) are easy compared to the responsibility of a good leader. They are easy compared to the daily grind most men contend with on a daily basis at their jobs, to their other responsibilities around the house (things do not get fixed around the house themselves). These days, given what marriage has become (which is nearly nothing as divorce is rampant and the man loses his children and half of everything) and what is expected of a husband with the lack of expectations in a wife, it is men who are arguably better off staying single.
What the woman is really looking for when she marries, is someone who can be a loving, respectful partner with her and appreciate her for all her qualities and all the things she will be able do with him in the marriage. Marriage is not about serving a man. He must be kind to her, and treat her like she matters, because she does. What wife wants to have sex with a cold, selfish, distant, unloving husband? His attitude and approach does matter. Women have to be a part of all decisions in the relationship, especially the ones that affect her. In fact, a husband cannot just make decisions and shove them in the wife’s face.Those decisions that profoundly affect her and her body and emotional comfort, must be discussed with her anyway. Stop treating women like doormats and sexual receptacles, because women are more than that.
I am trying to figure out why you assume that I think men should be “cold, selfish, distant, and unloving”? This is not the definition of dominant. You are conflating it with domineering. I agree with you that women are looking for exactly what you say. But respect is to be earned. It is not given just because one is female. It is up to women to find a man worth marrying. To find a good man. It is not up to men to become what women expect of them simply because women say they want that. There are so many men out there today who would give women exactly what you are describing, only women aren’t attracted to them. Because they give women exactly what they say they want. They are nice and then they are ignored. How many women do you know that lament that they are attracted to “bad boys”? How many lament the fact that they have found a “good man” only to not be attracted to him at all? Women are attracted to dominant men. This is exactly why books like 50 Shades of Gray have sold millions of copies.
You say that the wife HAS to be a part of every decision, but I say that it is the man who chooses who he wishes to spend his life with. If she insists she must be part of every decision, he might just decide to find someone else. However, if she is respectful, if she is kind and doesn’t disrespect and nag, she may just find that her husband wants her to be a part of the major decisions of their life because she has shown the fortitude and intelligence to help. Again, I am amazed that you would think that a man would just make a decision and throw it in his wife’s face and that you simply assume from a short post that I think women are doormats and sexual receptacles. You have come in here with a lot of presumptions, which the majority are simply wrong. If you had watched the video, you would have seen that Mrs. Bure stated the same exact thing. You say women are more than that. I say women must prove it, just like we expect men to prove themselves to us.
Stop telling wives that we have to lift up husbands up, unless you tell husbands to lift their wives up. Be fair and balanced.
Most husbands do lift up their wives, well above them and then their wives resent them for it. A supplicating husband is one who is disrespected and unloved by his wife. This is the majority of marriages today because of how many times men have been told since birth to lift up and respect their wives. I say it’s time for women to learn to love and respect their men. To learn how to lift them up and support them, till death do they part.
If you really are curious as to how I think a husband should treat marriage, I was asked about this before.
For further refutation of other commonly held misconceptions of submission, please read this excellent article.
To commenters, Jean came here upset but remained quite civil, even though she was clearly upset. I would ask the same of all of you.
The Woman Margery said:
I still simply do not understand how wifely submission can be so misinterpreted by so many. I really think it must be purposeful, that the indoctrination of the modern world has done its job in installing blinders on many of us. Very sad and incredibly frustrating for people like us that are just trying to live our lives while constantly being misrepresented and living under the threat of being saved from ourselves.
Another fallacy is at the root of this. Is somehow being under authority of a husband automatically translates to a tyranny. But being under the authority of government and corporation does not.
The all pervasive image of woman as a victim of abusive husband as well as women as victims in general causes this misinterpretation.
The Woman Margery said:
Stingray, I took the liberty of linking this on /r/RedPillWomen. I hope I haven’t overstepped!
The authority of the government doesn’t instill fear like victimhood does. The thought of being married to an authoritative husband causes tangible fear in a lot of women though most have never really even met a man like this. Victim is the new elite.
That threat of being saved from ourselves really does make me nervous. There are those out there who would be more than willing to destroy our families trying to *save* us.
You haven’t overstepped at all. Thanks for doing that, Margery!
The women I value in my life, I value because of their femininity, submissive nature and the way such things enhance my life
It seems that one of the reasons why wifely submission is misunderstood is because it’s so hard pressed on to women. Society constantly tells women what they “should” and “shouldn’t” be doing because everyone acts as if they know better. When women are told what their “place” is, many of them are going to automatically reject that because they see a malicious agenda. One that so many women have fallen into with the wrong men and wind up being manipulated by their husbands, if not worse. Women want to avoid that.
Similarly, I can see why Jean would be concerned with a woman’s value. You can say men value women, but let’s take a look at what they value. We can’t deny that women are generally told their value comes from their looks and fertility, and not much else. Women are to be looked at, not heard. That might be why a lot of women reject wifely submission, because they know it’s just all a part of the idea that women have no value in other areas like making decisions in a marriage. If that’s what a man values most in a woman, she will pick up on his subtle hints of this and that will turn her off.
When it comes to Candace, she seems happy enough with the role she chose, and that’s fine, but no woman “should” or has to choose the same role. A lot of women are happier by not submitting.
The Woman Margery said:
Ashley, the fact still remains that what women are being told they “should” be in our present day society is the opposite of submissive. Candace said nothing about “should” yet the commentary has been full of “shoulds” against her.
The Woman Margery said:
And Ashley “That might be why a lot of women reject wifely submission, because they know it’s just all a part of the idea that women have no value in other areas like making decisions in a marriage.”
You are wrong about this. This is not descriptive of wifely submission at all. Women who outright reject wifely submission for the reasons you have stated and the concerns Jean has put out there aren’t rejecting wifely submission they are rejecting the misconceptions around it. Wifely submission has yet to have an honest unbiased take on it in or present day society. People like Stingray and I are trying to change that because not only are the misconceptions an annoyance they are a threat when people think we are nothing but abused lemmings in need of saving.
In life, we all must submit to somebody. Even the king submits to God. If he doesn’t, it is not he who reigns but chaos.
I actually think done of the confusion comes from taking about men in the aggregate. See, what all women are valued for is their beauty and fertility. But what a particular man values is far more…particular.
Consider feminine appearance. Tempesttcup has spoken publicly on her blog that because her husband likes sharing adventurous outings with her, frilly clothing and silly shoes are not always the thing. So a general rule like “wear skirts” or “put on some heels” is not a universal. If you’re an outdoorsy girl who is more comfortable in hiking boots than Jimmy Choo’s your pool of available men will narrow, but then if your are a man who wants a girl to accompany him on his accent of El Capitan, well your pool will narrow as well. But the rule of women dressing like women doesn’t change. Context creates the specific application.
So, there are general rules of being feminine and submissive, and then there is finding a suitable match using good judgment. For example, a man might not necessarily find intelligence attractive (in the sense if generating sexual interest), but it may still be an important factor. Does he want a wife open to homeschooling? Is he intimidated by women with more education? (Or more likely, by women who use their degrees as clubs to beat with.) Is he an intellectual? An artist? A man of action? Fundamentally, are your good qualities and his complementary and do you and he value those things? I know plenty of intellectual couples for whom books are life and it is unimaginable to have a spouse who couldn’t share that. I also know plenty of others for whom all they desire is good sense.
The thing to keep in mind about submission is that is about supporting his mission. Your talents are directed to that end. He must select a wife who will help him. She must seek a husband whom she can respect and support. Any quality that meets this goal is a good one. Any that detracts from it, however lovely it might be in another context, becomes bad.
Jean, please don’t take this as an attack on you. I don’t know you from Eve. I’m sure you’re a wonderfully kind woman freaked out by these crazies you’ve just found on the Internet.
Buuut(Brace for barrage of examples):
I am much more patient than my boss. I may even be smarter than him. Does that delegitimize his boss status?
My mother hasn’t earned a dime in her life after age 23, when she gave birth to me. She has done a wonderful job raising me and my four siblings. She does all the laundry, the great majority of the cooking, and is a very interesting conversationalist. Also, to reinforce the raising of five kids: I’m still alive, despite all the stupid stunts I pulled as a kid. Were my dad to die, she has no career to speak of, but could live off my dad’s fairly generous life insurance policy. Who is devaluing women here, those who count her achievements as worthless without a career compensated in money, or the man who will work himself into the grave—and beyond—for her?
You are newly installed as corporate CEO/PTA President. Do you consider the COO/PTA Vice President subhuman? Would you say you devalue them?
Finally—does Stingray write like a doormat? Does she write like a mere sexual receptacle?
The Woman Margery said:
SPDI- “Finally—does Stingray write like a doormat? Does she write like a mere sexual receptacle?”
This is the big one for me- do any of the submissive wifes telling their story sound like mindless abused sex slaves that can’t string a sentence together?
But, than again, it is a common charge that we are not really women but men pretending to be women. I think that because the societal view of the submissive woman is so skewed that no one is willing to let themselves believe we are real thinking women with opinions, voices, and choices that we freely make. To believe that, to acknowledge that, would be world-view altering. “You mean 50s housewife types may not have been miserable and abused?” There goes a cornerstone feminist argument.
The Woman Margery said:
*wives not wifes. Of course while I am trying to make a point about being thinking women I make myself sound illiterate.
Leap of a Beta said:
I smell rabbit stew. Thanks for cooking that up, ladies. Mind if I partake a bit?
The underlying problem that most people never fail to address is that these people are responding to two things on a level they never really admit to. First is the fear of their own stupidity or inability to judge others. It makes sense, because they follow a religion where it mouths not judging others by their actions but crucify them for their words. Ah, the religion of Niceness. Anyways, you take away women’s ability to judge their mates, leave it up to their emotions, and you have a hedonistic cluster of spastic bodies without any divine morality guiding them. They’re afraid of mistakes because they’ve made so many of them in the past and have, literally, no clue about how to avoid making them in the future. All choices are the right choices, just with the wrong people. She ‘followed her heart’ after all, rather than having to follow some patriarchal God that might just know a little bit on what he’s talking about….
The second underlying assumption they make is that they know all humans are fallible, including her husband. Even if she finds the perfect man for her, that man is still fallible. She wants an out. Rather than realize that in a fallible world that has evil in it, failing is a chance for growth (both for the man as the individual, a leader, and for the couple to grow closer together or to God) she sees it as a potential disaster in the making that she must, MUST have the authority to fix. Because the caveat to the first part on fallen fallibility is that she isn’t fallible or fallen, or at least not as much as he is. She can fix it. Always. Because she’s a woman. Thus, while she’s right in that anyone can live without a man or woman, just as anyone can live off bread and water yet would like an occasional steak or bacon,.she lost sight of a deeper truth. Sometimes its better to sacrifice a McDonalds happymeal, have a dinner of bread and water, and then have four meals of Steak, than to have only McDonalds. That’s what marriage is. It’s sacrificing a mediocre every day for the rare need to subsist on the minimum in order to have regular feasts of joy, love, and satisfaction.
They would like you to think marriage is all bread and water, and that you give up the idea of ever having a steak. Little do they know how much a man will do for a good steak.
Rarely will you kill these assumptions in the rabbit you’re stewing. Usually it’s only worth while if you think you might have rabbits hiding in nearby holes that might gain some wisdom by watching their fallen friend skewered and stewed before their eyes, You have to hide the fact that the rabbit will be reborn 10 minutes later thanks to short attention spans and a lack of intellectual honesty. Zombie rabbits make much less appealing stew.
I am far more inclined to assist a feminine, submissive woman than a masculine, independent woman. The submitted woman has placed her trust in our keep and we value that as much, if not more, than she does. A strong, independent woman is saying that she does not need help, so we take her at her word.
There is something deep inside that wells up when we are around feminine women, almost like a strength that we have lost. We miss it when she is gone. Nothing like that happens when another of the strong, independent women comes to throw how worthless men are in our faces. “I do not need a man,” might as well be, “I will not value a man.” That is what that says, and that is why men prefer submissive women.
The Shadowed Knight
I second Leap. Women are simply fearful creatures in a way that men aren’t, and submission is a fearful matter. But much of life is about overcoming our fears, whether rational or irrational, and carrying on despite them.
The Navy Corpsman said:
I also struggled with this concept, more from a semantics side, than anything else. I believe that these ideas are only natural, for the vast majority of humans upon this earth, but not for all. For those who prefer the opposite, there are far fewer women who actually WANT to ‘wear the pants’, after having worn them for a few years. For men who prefer to be submissive, life can be difficult.
But, as recent research has revealed, women rated their happiness levels lower, than 40-50 years ago. Perhaps wage slave is not a happiness inducing vocation for many women? I know several women who do well as the man in their marriages, and their husbands do very well as the woman. It is not for me to tell them that they are wrong, just as they cannot tell me that my way is wrong. I do confess that I have great difficulty understanding such a marriage, but if they are happy together, where is the harm?
Yet, at the same time, the loud screeching herds condemn submissive women as traitors to their gender, all the while whining ‘where have all the good men gone?’
My wife and I have discussed this very idea of female submission quite a lot, lately. I even caught (overheard) her telling a family friend that she considers herself slightly submissive. She has a PhD, and retired as a full professor after 20 years of working. I do NOT make all decisions, only some, and she makes some. Are these decisions fully along traditional male-female lines?
Why no, why do you ask? Does it matter? Her degrees are in accounting and finance, why the heck would I want to balance the checkbook when she can do it in 20 minutes? Why would she want to fire up my forge when I can make those coathooks in an hour?
A wise husband sets the course, a wise wife turns the wheel.
A wise husband seeks her counsel, a wise wife considers her every word.
A wise husband pays attention, a wise wife finds ways to show intent.
Nearly 20 years ago, I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, surgery, chemo and a lot of sick. My wife took over everything… including my business. All of it, for more than a year. And she took care of me, as well. After tests showed there was no more healing to be done, she told me, “I hated every minute of this past year, and not only because you were sick. I do NOT ever want to be the husband or business owner, ever again.”
My job now, as I see it, is to never ask her to do it again. But, make no mistake about this; without her, everything would have fallen into oblivion. By the way, she and I agree, the only cooking that I am good at, is grilling steaks, and boiling water. We both got real sick of steaks, that year.
My grandmother: Women have to be in the mood, men just have to be in the room.
My grandfather: If, in spring, a young mans’ thoughts turn to love, ya’ll been wasting the winter.
The Navy Corpsman
@The Navy Corpsman
” Her degrees are in accounting and finance, why the heck would I want to balance the checkbook when she can do it in 20 minutes? ”
Being captain of the ship doesn’t mean bearing all the burden yourself. After all having a capable wife means delegating tasks to her that she is capable of. But you are still the overall boss. And your word is still final.
@The Navy Corpsman
Does not a president or CEO delegate responsibilities and duties to the board members?
Women are no longer told what their “place” is. Not in the manner you are speaking of. That hasn’t happened for decades in any way beyond feminists using it to scare women and in Hollywood shows. Then they couple that with things like the commercial in the post and “Sex and the City” to show women how truly empowered they can be! Then when they live like Samantha, and then end up asking where the good men are, they can’t figure out what went wrong. I think women “should” learn what most men want, they should learn when their fertility actually begins to wain and they should know about the wall (it’s not just some small voice fear in the back of their head that they will have to worry about later). They should understand these things young, truly understand them, and then decide how they want to live and take responsibility for those choices later. Women should KNOW and right now, they simply do not.
As far as value? Read very carefully what Lauratheringmistress wrote. Her comment is and excellent and an important one.
In case people didn’t read through my last comment, I just want to say again, what a fantastic comment. It should be read by all the women reading here.
EXACTLY. Who devalues women more? Who devalues the natural biological roles more? It is as simple as saying the sky is blue that women have babies and nurse them, but it is the feminist who say that is worthless. That the role MAN held throughout and before civilization in the more important role, the role to be coveted and sought with impunity. Did women perceive that men devalued our traditional roles? Yes, because we used to hear things like “YOU THROW LIKE A GIRL” and conclude girls were less. No one was around to counter that with, yes but girls are fantastic at X, Y and Z (alas, this is when the feminists simply doubled down that men didn’t value us). That is what we are trying to do here. It’s time for us to value what we are good at and what men are incapable of doing.
En fuego, Leap!!
It was my intention with this post to reach those others that might be reading. I tend to think Jean never even came back. And even if 10 minutes later all os dismissed, a seed has been planted. It may never sprout, but it is now there.
Ton and TSK, touched on a huge part of this. Submission can change a man (in ways that a doormat NEVER could). It opens doors in his heart and his mind. I can’t begin to describe what that is like to give a man that you love.
The fear of giving that to an unworthy man is palpable. And instead of facing that fear, we are told that strength lies in avoiding it and sadness follows.
Traditional lines are typically each playing to their strength, just as in your marriage. The wife makes decisions in her role, as does the husband. It is typically in decisions that affect both roles and when they husband and wife are at an impasse that the husband makes the decision. But even then, the wife might change his mind.
There have been times in our marriage when Maritus has said, “this is how it’s going to be” and I’ve come right out and said, “No”. He looks at me, knows I have some information he does not, and then immediately changes his mind (assuming we are in front of others and can’t discuss the situation). Otherwise, we each give everything we know and make the decision together. RARELY do we ever not agree. On those occasions where we do, my husband decides and I accept that and everything that comes. We are tied together and I will help this union in every way I can. That also means doing nothing to hinder it.
Jesus said the greatest is the one who serves.
Men submit to God. Men submit to authority. Women submit to God, the appropriate men, authority. Children submit to God, their parents, authority.
Why is it that men understand you have to submit sometimes…yet women are horrified at the fact they have to submit?
Ladies submit to something whether you like it or not. The brainwashing is telling you to NOT do it with your husband.
@Donal, all people are subject to fear. Let me introduce you to the men I know who listen to the Art Bell show. The difference between men and women is that men are trained to respond to fear with action (in a healthy society). Whether the action of buying ammo and investing in gold is rational is up for debate. We all have chimeras that drive us to decisions that the objective person can see are not in line with reality.
@Earl, you caught what I was going to say. There is the temptation in all of us to avoid our crosses.
The fear of submission is not irrational, not in whole.
The irrational part is based on a lack of trust for the man, and a lack of trust in our judgement. Did we choose well? We are all tyrants now, men and women alike. For a tyrant is created when a man or woman is allowed to be governed by their passions. And any man or woman governed by their passions will fear the rule of other men, for they know how poorly they would rule if placed in the same authority.
The rational part is that even a good and virtuous man may ask us to do something that is hard. Consider the woman who has miscarried. The sorrow is incredible, and were it up to her alone, the temptation to never risk that sorrow again is great. But joy only comes with the risk of sorrow. If her husband judges that it would be wise to again seek to conceive a child, and no truly serious reason beyond that fear exists, like Christ in Gethsemane she has to say “Nevertheless, not my will but thine be done.”
This is a hard teaching.
It is no harder a teaching though then telling a man that he must love his wife as Christ loved the church. Christ loved his bride unto death. When she spit upon him, mocked him, whipped him, crucified him, abandoned him, and gambled away his last garment. And then he said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” A very hard teaching indeed.
The only way to joy is through death to self. Neither men or women can avoid this if they want to be genuinely happy.
And believe me, I do not envy men their crowns. They are made of thorns and the weight can be unbearable. Just keep in mind that when we women kneel in true submission, we are sometime sweating blood. That is price we pay for the sin of our first parents, and the only way we will ever reach Heaven.
This is where this whole frickin pile of crap gets lost. Yeah… I am holding back on the cussing.
It all comes down to housework. Aaaaawwww, poor muffin. Fetch me a martini. ‘Cause that’s all I do when I get home from work. Oh, and make sure you got the lingerie on, my little sex slave. I am sure you aren’t going to exercise your rights and say no cuz I said we’re gonna f@#k!
There is so much crap in this comment. I am puking.
Peregrine John said:
Yeah, crazy coffee, it’s hard. Leap, bless him, smells stew. I still smell what came before, but in a rare fit of wisdom held my tongue. Keyboard. Whatever.
Do you think the responsibility of a leader is so easy?
Yeah. Odds are she does.
The Corpsman said very nearly what I was going to: Too many women think happiness comes from being in control. Then they conflate control with power (which are quite different) and go for both. Succeed or not in the attempt, there is no happiness there because there is no peace there. The only way to enjoy captaincy is to enjoy tension, and find a sort of comfort in it. This is not the time to try to explain that, but it is possible – but not for all. I have rarely seen a woman who can hold the reins for long before her native happiness drains away. On the other hand, knowing someone else will keep you safe, and that you can rely on their judgement, is a very strong kind of peace. Knowing that your care of them strengthens their resolve and protection, that you are part of them in a nearly mystical way, brings happiness.
Peregrine John said:
See also this bit o’ brilliance from Sunshine Mary. In particular, the comments from her husband she quotes early on. There is an endless insistence that you address men’s need to also do whatever it is you’ve noted women should think about, which your commenter predictably did at length toward the end. That article, as a whole but especially in Mary’s husband’s remarks, shows why such an insistence is unnecessary, insulting, and frankly ugly to the bone. And why some of us have to bite back an awful lot when it (reliably) shows up.
Curiously, the same women who are all about the inclusion of finger-wagging at men in the name of balance and fairness never seem to have the same energy about including women’s responsibilities. Hm.
The brainwashing is telling you to NOT do it with your husband.
And what a gift to withhold from the man you promised to marry and love for life.
And believe me, I do not envy men their crowns.
Me, either. And what a difficult thing for us women to see (it took me a long time). We see the power and none of the disadvantages. It is time we open our eyes.
I was pretty insulted myself at that part. It shows the truth to many women being wholly unaware of what men have given and continue to give to them.
Yeah. Odds are she does [hink the responsibility of a leader is so easy].
In everyday life, yes. But I guarantee that these same women when watching the movies of good kings, of men the find incredibly attractive, and see the weight on the good kings back feel for that man. Want to help him if only she were the chosen to do so. Think of Aragorn, King Arthur, Atticus Finch, or any other strong man with whom a woman can identify. But when that man is her husband, and there is not music playing or camera angle or the blatant look at what he is going through in his world she can’t or won’t see it.
Just because our men are not fighting the ultimate evil, or sitting at a round table, or fighting blatant social injustice does not make them any less kingly. When a woman wants to be married to a king, that requires her support. Without it, or even worse, with her trying to push him down from that role, he will never be the man she always wanted him to be.
Excellent job Stingray and so much wisdom in all the comments.
Leap and Laura, you both hit the mark about fear.
Peregine John, most women have never felt the heavy responsibility of leadership particularly the kind that require make or break decisions.
For things to change outside of our corner of the world we need visible role models, pure and simple. When women can actually witness first hand that submission works then you will see a mass movement away from the lies of feminism.
“The thing to keep in mind about submission is that is about supporting his mission. Your talents are directed to that end. He must select a wife who will help him. She must seek a husband whom she can respect and support. Any quality that meets this goal is a good one.”
But what does he give her though? Protection and security are often the main (or sometimes only) things I hear about what men should offer to their wives, but these things were given to us by our parents. That doesn’t make a marriage. There needs to be a lot more of a balance with the give and take in terms of respect, love, emotional support, affection, etc.
Aware of being too cliche, when the classic driscollian Father’s Day kick in the teeth is offered, do women clamor for the same dressing down? Do they want to hear how they can’t cook and clean and “by golly, I am gonna have to do something about that!” What would be the role-reversed equivalent of circles on the back?
Just had a thought as I was closing up shop for the day.
Jean commented on “guidance of wise women”.
Only a wise woman can offer true submission.
Thank you, practicallyperfect.
And I agree about visible role models. Words on a screen only go so far, but to see it in person, it’s a whole different thing. I think a lot of people see a relationship like we talk about here and would never guess that the wife would call herself submissive. In real life puts the end to the doormat lie.
No body has said that those alone make a marriage. Have you ever met a husband where those are the only things given? I did not write this post to talk to the men about what they need to offer. As I’ve said here already, society drums into their heads everyday what is expected of them. And it fails. The balance is already well in women’s favor.
Ha! A stern look of, “Woman! Make me a sandwich!” 😉
I look forward to the Woman Up that is coming. It’s going to be rough, but it’s time is coming, I think.
Devoting your life to serving the person you ostensibly love most in the world needs some kind of reimbursement program?
The Woman Margery said:
Ashley “There needs to be a lot more of a balance with the give and take in terms of respect, love, emotional support, affection, etc.”
All of these things are present in a sub/dom union. Where have we ever said that they aren’t? Where has any of us ever said it was just protection and security?
My husband gives me love, affection, emotional support, protection, security, etc. He provides for me and provides a needed shoulder or a needed kick in the rear depending on the situation. It really sounds like you envision a sub/dom union as being one where the man barks orders and the woman obeys and that is all there is. It’s far deeper, far more complex. I highly recommend shelving your ideas of what submission is for a while and paying close attention to what actual submissive wives are saying submission is.
The Woman Margery said:
“Devoting your life to serving the person you ostensibly love most in the world needs some kind of reimbursement program?”
I love this, Phedre! There is the reimbursement program that modern women demand and then there is the reality of complimenting forces.
If you actually look at it wives do not “reimburse” men, either. Women are not expected to repay the man with what he has given out, the expectation is the opposite. Yet it is only the issue if it is the man “withholding”? Instead submissive wives value the gifts of our husbands without having to pull out our checklist to make sure we’re “even”. The gifts my husband gives me are not necessarily the gifts I give him and visa versa. Because that’s the way the world works, the other thing is only the way we’d like it to.
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Greetings, Lady Stingray. I’ve just spent a while going through your blog, and I have to say – I’m a fan. I’m very happy that there are more blogs centered around a Red Pill understanding by women popping up around the Androsphere, and I’m especially glad to have found yours, a well-established resource. I’ve sent a few links to my girl, having recently decided to introduce her to this sphere of information directly. Thanks for giving me some great material to pass along to her.
@The Navy Corpsman:
“A wise husband sets the course, a wise wife turns the wheel.
A wise husband seeks her counsel, a wise wife considers her every word.
A wise husband pays attention, a wise wife finds ways to show intent.”
Beautifully put, sir. I may have to put that on my wall in the future.
The Navy Corpsman said:
I’ve come to the conclusion that I am an archaic dinosaur, unable to change with the progress of societal norms and the advance of human thought.
Either that, or I am right, and this FUBAR we’re living in, is as much an aberration as Nazi Germany 1933-1945. Either way, I’m staying ghost and this world can destroy itself, for all I care.
To those that replied to my earlier comment, thanks… my only real issue is with the word, submission. I also agree with you in that I cannot come up with a better word.
I’m still telling my grandsons to stay away from women… all women. I do not understand the sickness with which they are infected, but it is better to avoid casual contact, than to become another robot serving a purpose which intends to destroy them, utterly.
The Navy Corpsman
The Navy Corpsman: “my only real issue is with the word, submission. I also agree with you in that I cannot come up with a better word.”
I don’t think there is a better single word, but explaining the concept with the Captain-First Officer metaphor works well. Any unit commanding officer, unit senior non-commissioned officer military metaphor works well.
The Navy Corpsman said:
Problem with that is, I was a non-com. I detest officers. How about non-com, private, and the kids are boots?
Works on all levels, and officers are ignored, almost like the military. Kids act like they’re doing something when the brass is nearby, but goof off when alone.
Plus, we all get to make fun of brown bars.
The Navy Corpsman
I think I may have to *borrow* the reimbursement program line. 😉
Women are not expected to repay the man with what he has given out, the expectation is the opposite.
Exactly. It’s like this, I’m not even sure what it’s called, push gifts or something like that? We don’t get all those beautiful things Margery talked about just because we are female. Good men will give those things, but HE decides with whom to give them.
Thank you very much, Sir and welcome. I hope your girl likes it here and if she has any questions she or you shouldn’t hesitate to ask!
The Navy Corpsman,
I count not changing with today’s advancement of human thought as a huge plus. Actually, it’s not advancement. It’s dumbing down. It’s encouraging people to embrace the animal inside rather than rise above it. It’s become filth and our culture reflects that. I have faith that it can turn around. I’m not sure what will be destroyed in the process, but people will have to change.
The Navy Corpsman: “Problem with that is, I was a non-com. I detest officers.”
Different experiences, I guess. Where I served, the officers, sergeants, and lower enlisted generally related well with each other, the officers set the standard, and the sergeants made it work. For better or worse on both fronts.
I agree with you that in the up close and personal, down and dirty business on the ground, sergeants are the hub of activity. Officers work hard, too, but their work isn’t the same as enlisted work. Their pressures are different, too.
“How about non-com, private, and the kids are boots?”
Sergeant, corporal, private works for me. Wife is an NCO, too, just lower-ranking.
The Navy Corpsman said:
I was a doc in Lebanon, 30 years ago. The military was still recovering from kicking out thousands of druggies from the 70s, add in daily patrols around Beirut, and the fact that Marines do not like officers, even Marine officers… well, some things just rub off on you.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate officers, merely detest them, at least until they make O4 or so, and leave grunts alone. On the other hand, my first Battalion CO was overwhelmingly the best human being I have had the pleasure of knowing personally. Recommended me to OCS, and like a moron, I stayed in Lebanon.
Mrs Stingray, I’m pretty sure I understand the way you mean submission to your husband. I suppose I actually thought about it, back in my youth and before my marriage. But, I just behaved the way I thought was best, both in my marriage and raising two boys. I provided for all, taught everyone how I look at, and deal with life, and let them take what they want for their own selves. Most of all, I explained to them, and they are explaining to their sons and daughter, never to allow anyone else to define who and what they are, inside. I didn’t ever tell my boys to ‘be a man’ or to ‘man up’. I showed them. Both of them got it.
I’m not sure I agree that society is encouraging the animal inside… as much as it is destroying the individual human outside. Inside every left wing liberal Marxist Socialist John Lennon-singing “Imagine” dipstick, is a Joe Stalin screaming to be let out. Remove all possessions, destroy all personal identity, obliterate gender lines or at least make them meaningless by espousing tolerance over everything except critical thinking. Above all, critical thinking must be destroyed.
I remember 1984 (the year) very well. Reagan was President, and every week, liberal essays appeared in newspapers about how Orwell was a prophet.
Yeah, Orwell WAS a prophet, but he was early by thirty years. Now, my grandsons will have to pay for maternity insurance, mammograms and the like, just so women won’t have to pay MORE for their insurance. Newspeak….
Now, if I can just convince them all to move down to the ranch….
The Navy Corpsman
I am new to this and I am wondering about a few things. My other half gave me some links to read about TRP and RPW and i find them interesting and want to learn more. So, if I’m submissive, does that mean that I cant ask him to do things for me? That I just do everything that he says, even if I dont agree with it? And when he walks onto the hardwood floor without wiping his feet,and gets water all over the place and doesn’t clean it up, I cant get upset or irratated about my hardwood floor getting wet marks on it? I apologize if I have the wrong idea about what this is all about, like I said, I’m new. However, I want to know more. I want to be what he needs, what he deserves. I have dated the “bad boys” you spoke of above. Thry weren’t what I needed, or what I wanted. He is both and I want to be the same for him. If you could help me, I would really appreciate it.
So, if I’m submissive, does that mean that I cant ask him to do things for me?
No. It doesn’t mean that at all. If something needs to be done that you can’t do (for whatever reason) it’s that you would respectfully let him know him a timely manner. Be careful not to nag him about it but make sure that he knows that if he forgets that you’ll remind him (calmly) that you still need it to be done. I’m trying to think of an example. Say your SO (husband?) takes care of the maintenance on the vehicles. If you know that in a month your car needs to be inspected and you then ask him to take it in. If, after two weeks he seems to have forgotten, you would clearly but kindly remind him. “SO, please don’t forget about my car. Can you still do that for me?” That kind of thing. It’s not that we should never ask for help for things. It’s that we shouldn’t nag and it’s that, if we know our husband/SO’s are stressed then maybe we should think about helping him out more. For example, in the summer, if things get busy for your SO try to maybe mow the lawn for him so it’s one less thing for him to worry about.
That I just do everything that he says, even if I dont agree with it?
I know this one can be a bit frightening for people who are new, but think on this. Would your SO really ask you to do anything that you strongly disagree with? Would he do it in a manner without consulting with you first? Most dominant husbands consult their wives on almost every major and even many minor decisions. They want their opinions because they deeply respect their wives. Then they take that information into consideration before making the final decision. Also, the wives end up making a lot of the decisions on her end of things as well because she is better equipped to do so. The way you have worded the question makes it sound as though a submissive wife spends her days taking orders (and I’m not picking on you, I understand where this comes from), but that’s rarely the case. It’s usually the two of you conquering the world together with the understanding that when you don’t agree with something, you trust him to make the right decision for everyone involved.
And when he walks onto the hardwood floor without wiping his feet,and gets water all over the place and doesn’t clean it up, I cant get upset or irratated about my hardwood floor getting wet marks on it?
It’s not that you can’t get upset, it’s that you should control your emotions. It’s that, instead of barking at him (I have no idea if you do this, but as an example) you would calmly ask him to remove his boots next time. It’s that you would take a moment and try to consider where he is coming from and why he may have forgotten. Did he just come in from a horrible day at work? Was he shoveling the driveway and is freezing and just forgot? Is something else on his mind that is important to him and it’s really not a big deal for you to get a paper towel and wipe it up? You’ll likely find that given this consideration for him and where he is coming from, that he will likely take off his boots most of the time. If he forgets, he will either try to clean it up or be incredibly grateful for your understanding in doing it for him. The big key here is that, you don’t do these things because you want him to stop taking his boots off at the door. You do these things for him because he is your SO and you love and resect him. What you will likely get in return is secondary to this, but the returned love and respect is amazing.
It all really boils down to respect. Respect for who he is and what he does.. Too often we don’t *see* what our men do for us and end up be being ungrateful. I ask women to pay attention, to see what they might be missing so as to better help him. Also, what he may be doing for us might not be what we want or expect. That doesn’t mean they don’t love us, it just means they have a different way of showing it. A wife should learn how her own husband shows it and learn to appreciate that about him. Not hope to change him so she can get what she wants. Very often, they will still give us what we want, only on their time frame and in their own way. All this does is make it that much better when it happens.
Don’t be afraid to ask questions, Lauren and welcome!
I really think that with the sdvent of the internet that they are able to develop gratitude as they can more often be made aware of the sacrifices of their husband and men in general. That became lacking when industrialisation took men away from their homes.
For women to blissfully be in eden would courtesy of sin nature(as with men) and shielded from the consequences of their actions would make them spoiled and wicked.
Thank you so much. That helps alot. If I have anymore questions (which I’m sure I will) I’ll let you know. Thank you again!
I think the internet can help a lot with developing gratitude (it’s one of the reasons I blog), but there is a dangerous trap that women fall into with their solipsism and it’s that we can become so involved with our end of things, so consumed with our own little world, that it can be hard to remember to step back and understand what men do for us. It’s no lie that most women don’t give a second thought to where their computer, car, house, etc came from because it works. On the surface, this is not a bad thing because as long as the washing machine works, I can get my job done. I can focus on what I need to do. But if we go deeper, it is incredibly easy to not open one’s eyes at all and not give much of any thought to what a man does and what he puts himself through when he is not in the house. It is very possible to create such a bubble that very little exists outside it. Women are highly encouraged to live this way today, they are convinced that this bubble is their right and that they should be given the luxury of it.
We can break out of that, but it is not always easy, especially when married to a man who doesn’t speak very much about what he does when he is out conquering the world; when he is making his sacrifices for his family. But if we choose to look, to really see, us women can get a fair idea of what our men go through and do our best to give them a pillow to fall into upon their return.
You’re very welcome, Lauren.
I wonder if women will have to be exposed to the blood and guts of life when for example they are initiated into adulthood at the age of 12.
This little bubble did not exist when women were in farming communities and not isolated from their men. And weren’t isolated from the natural rhythms and harshness of life. The decadence of the modern world may have done much damage to women as well as men. The great temptation of wealth to seek to live in comfort and luxury in this fallen world and considering our sin nature leads to much misery.
True Comfort only exists in Zion. And true wealth only in heaven after one has been glorified. It is futile to seek comfort and stagnate and also decline.
But rather constant growth and improvement until one’s death.
i think you might like this SR.
This little bubble did not exist when women were in farming communities and not isolated from their men.
I disagree. This bubble has always existed. What has changed is it’s size. It used to be much larger when women helped their men farm. But the men (generally) would still go out to attempt to achieve much bigger things. Things world affecting or could better sympathize with those world things already occurring whereas women would have better sympathized with the problems of what he neighbors (the whole family) are going through down the street. And I’m not just talking about comparing what she has to her neighbors, but genuine sympathy. She could understand the hardship of their day to day life = whereas the men would better understand the politics that were occurring hundreds of miles away.
I’m way late to this party but I feel a need to reply to this:
“It seems that one of the reasons why wifely submission is misunderstood is because it’s so hard pressed on to women.”
Who hard pressed this onto women outside of a few fundies and women like us on the internet? I see just the opposite when I look around me, both in and out of the church.
The result? A lot of unhaaaapy women and frustrated men.
The Navy Corpsman: “Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate officers, merely detest them, at least until they make O4 or so, and leave grunts alone.”
That may be the difference to our experiences. Almost all the officers I worked for understood where to draw the line on what trooper business belonged to the sergeants and the officer role with soldiers. Maybe they all were broken in by good platoon sergeants.That doesn’t mean I didn’t experience BS, but it does mean the BS was mostly channeled and filtered to a tolerable level. Not always, but usually.
In my 1st unit, we had a 2LT who was prior service. He had been a high-speed SSG and still had his NCO habits. So, he ordered us around until the CPT sat him down and told him that only he, the CPT, and the sergeants were allowed to give us orders during normal business.
The Navy Corpsman said:
The key part of your post:
“Maybe they all were broken in by good platoon sergeants.”
Bingo. I know for a fact that FMF does not promote to 1LT til an officer has been broken in by a good first sgt. Or, at least, did not used to promote. Danny from 504 has been scaring the crap out of me the past year, with what the Navy/Marines have become. Tacking on, is illegal. Hurting the FNG feelings, is illegal.
We’ve effectively hijacked this particular thread, but I do wonder, do civilians actually think these kids will be able to defend this country, without the proper training or esprit de corps, morale, ANYTHING which resembles a true fighting force?
Time to dig another bunker, I think. This one is going to go deep, for when we get invaded. To bring this back to submissive women, ladies, I have three grandsons, current ages 15, 13, 10. Got a daughter you raised well? Cooking, sewing, cleaning, medical training a plus… I’m taking applications, loves dogs and hunting a huge plus. Utter contempt for wimps is a necessity.
All three boys will get equal parts of 32000 acres, fifteen stock tanks, their own personal log home built by them (and their dad and me), 4000 (current) head of beef, at least two saddle horses, water rights up the wazoo, plus shops, outbuildings, and barns.
If she has her own personal rifle, she’s in like Flynn.
The Navy Corpsman
The Navy Corpsman: “We’ve effectively hijacked this particular thread”
Yeah we have. Sorry Stingray.
On the other hand, the military’s deep experience with leader-follower, team relationships that function in high-pressure conditions has a lot to offer when visualizing complementary gender relations, especially the Captain-First Officer marriage model. From that standpoint, even a tangent between veterans can be applied back to the main topic, with just a little imagination, as analogy.
What does a man provide?
Look at protection. Girl #1 of mine works in a nasty high school. She showed a few photos of mine, word got out, and guess who no longer has problems with the local diversity?
Security beyond the physical as Girl #2 has decided to get a master’s degree in a non practical field simply because she loves the topic and feels secure in her place in my world.
Both girls are lowering their debt, improved their savings, self reported highest levels of contentment, lowest levels of fear/ anxiety, cars are kept clean and in good working order, some minor weight loss as they both eat better now… they function much better under me then they did on their own.
Those are some of the countless intangibles a man brings to a woman’s life, when the man views her as property to be cherished and steward
do civilians actually think these kids will be able to defend this country, without the proper training or esprit de corps, morale, ANYTHING which resembles a true fighting force?
Some civilians know exactly what is going on. I think that number is slowly growing.
I have three grandsons, current ages 15, 13, 10.
I have 2 girls. Decent age compared to your grandsons, too. 🙂
No need to apologize. I don’t mind at all.
The Navy Corpsman said:
“I have 2 girls. Decent age compared to your grandsons, too.”
Now THAT is interesting. Ya’ll in Michigan? How do you feel about Southeast Colorado? Hot summers, cool winters, dry but not desert. My wife goes through a jar of moisture-stuff a month. Very brown in winter… except for two-three snowstorms a year, and a blizzard about every 25 years that shuts everything down. Last blizzard was 2007.
Is there a masculine form of yenta?
The Navy Corpsman
Nope. We’re in the east. I like it out west though. 😉
The Navy Corpsman said:
We’ll have to keep possible matches in mind. Being a rancher’s wife isn’t easy, but it’s not difficult either. All depends on attitude.
The Navy Corpsman
Matthew King said:
Submission is the necessary precondition for liberty. For men and women.
We are each born enslaved to our passions and ignorance. We become free of those chains through the discipline that leads to self-control.
Without self-control, your passions will have to be controlled by others lest they lead to the excess that brings self-destruction.
Men are the strong element which brings self-discipline to the “one flesh” of marriage, so much so that the woman does not have to worry about being weak, soft, gentle to children as they require in youth. The man is responsible for the sturdiness of the walls around the domicile within which women are free to make the good life.
The man submits to the authority of the woman within the protective walls of their castle, the one place where a man might take off his armor, let down his guard, and be rejuvenated to go back out to the world as he must.
We cultivate a garden with walls and discipline, otherwise it returns to the “wilderness” as Bates references above. It depends on a partnership, a division of labor, and a clear line of decision-making authority. Everyone in the household submits to this structure, and in doing so, becomes as free as is humanly possible.
Submission is a curse word only to those men and women who have submitted to unworthy, weak authorities. While women may fret about to whom they submit, men are equally anxious about being worthy of submission. It is a lifelong dedication, a very difficult feat to pull off, to honor his family’s sacrifice and trust in his ability to perform.
The women who erroneously mistook the man’s role as the only source of dignity are finding out today that it is not the fun little frolic their ugly older sisters imagined it was. And because of the lie about the source of freedom, there is a great, unconscious, inchoate dissatisfaction — a nameless dread — among women who accepted the bill of goods, which rather maliciously also stole their ability to call slavery slavery and freedom freedom.
Freedom is not willfulness in the absence of commitment. (That is more properly termed, “libertinism.”) Freedom is the proper ordering of commitment which produces a breadth of possibility in which the will to exercise itself. If one never submits to the discipline of piano lessons, one will only ever be able to make noise on a keyboard, whereas virtuosos can play anything from a nursery rhyme to a concerto. That is true freedom.
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