I was asked at RPW, what is the difference between being submissive and subservient (or being a doormat)? I think doormat is a better word given the first definition of subservient.
~ prepared to obey others unquestioningly.
In almost every single scenario, I agree with this. I am prepared to obey my husband without question because he has earned my trust. This is something I have given him, that I freely choose to give him, because I know he would never abuse it.
This, I believe, is the difference and why I think doormat (though I loathe to use this feminist word) is more apt. There is a connotation of fear behind it. Where the woman will submit not out of choice, but because she is afraid (tangentially, this is why feminists like to use this word to describe women who choose to submit because the fear connotation is meant to make submissive women feel small and unimportant. It’s also why they call our husbands tyrants. It will illicit fear in other women so they will not choose this path. It’s worked remarkably well). Only submission to one’s husband is a choice and one that, when made well, elicits in women a strength and freedom that, today, is wholly surprising and, to many, beyond belief.
The key to this is to find a man and decide before you marry if he is deserving of this level of trust.
Now, a word on fear. The fear I’m talking about here is more of a primal one. A fear in which the woman knows that something horrible will happen if she is not completely compliant. Men who create fear like this, while they do exist, are not common. No, not all men are deserving of submission and not because they will cause this fear, but because they won’t respect it. There are some men who will take advantage of it for various reasons (though, again, not as prevalent as feminists would have us believe, nor are they nonexistent).
While I will likely get slammed for this for those who like to misunderstand to redirect (SJW’s I’m looking at you), there is another type of fear that even submissive women might experience. This fear, I believe, when respected, is just fine (let’s think of levels of fear here. I’m not talking terrified. I’m talking wary). This is fear of disappointing. We’ve all experienced this. We have a person in our lives whom we highly respect. Parents, a boss, a friend, a colleague, and even our husbands whom have expectations of us. We know that if these expectations are not met this person will be disappointed in us. It is a driving force and one not to be mistaken for fear for our well being. I believe this to be fine as it is a natural consequence of respect. Now, one should work to grow past this as it is not necessary, but recognize it for what it is. It is not there because of a husband lording over you, rather it is a consequence of respect. Don’t let those who would use words against you turn it into something that it is not.
Before marriage is pertinent. Once a wife is married she is obligated to submit for the sake of her god and to be on of a quiet and gentle spirit even if he does not obey the word(1 peter 3)
It becomes unconditional in all circumstances unless(I think) if involving command to clearly sin.
There is also the problem about when submission is conditional on behaviour of the husband in a marriage which may ensure trust or not. Hence allowing wives to submit when convenient basing it upon whether her husband is a good boy or not which defacto causes her to become the head of the marriage and making her husband the chaffeur driving her the way she wants to god.
*go
infowarrior,
Yes, that dichotomy is a dangerous one and I don’t like to discuss it because I never want to give women a hamstering excuse to disobey their husbands. However, from the Catechism of the Council of Trent,
Wives who, before marriage, vet their potential husbands do not have to worry about this because their husbands would never ask them to do something inconsistent with piety, so it becomes a nonissue.
I have another post I’ve been wanting to put up about St Monica, St Augustine’s mother, who married a pagan. She lived a very Christian life much to the chagrin of her husband. Because she could not submit to him regarding her faith, she spent the rest of her time submitting to him very deeply, in everything, to make it up to him. Years later, he converted because of her example. This wouldn’t have happened if she submitted to him in absolutely everything because he wouldn’t have had her pious example to see for himself.
The power of femininity. 🙂
I think you should give historical examples to illustrate your point so that women may know that feminine power is no made up legend.
Well for the RPW subreddit to see.
The power of femininity.
Indeed and it is mocked as weakness.
I think you should give historical examples to illustrate your point
Easier said than done. Women like this are rarely noticed by their very nature. There are a few Saints, but none secular that I know of.
I am prepared to obey my husband without question because…
I wonder what is wrong with modern people and authority. I actively obey hundreds of people without question. It doesn’t bother me at all; mere common sense.
1) Coaches
2) Tutors
3) Leader on a work crew
4) Wife when she yells for help
5) Police officer directing traffic
6) Store clerk who asks me to let somebody in line
7) Boss when under pressure to get it done
I’m always blown away that any woman would want a man who doesn’t expect to lead and to be obeyed. What would the kids think about having to obey mom? Hell, it’s not about power, it’s about responsibility and making life easy for all in the group. What a hellish household independent women create: no leader, nobody to take the heat, chaos.
I wonder what is wrong with modern people and authority.
Women respect the authority you are talking about. It is second nature and not even given a second thought. A husband in authority? She thinks, by what right? Who says so? Why can’t I be in authority? All of this these thoughts are backed up by our culture, not to mention female nature.
You are talking common sense. Our culture is not.
I’m always blown away that any woman would want a man who doesn’t expect to lead and to be obeyed.
They do. By her say so. And to women, it’s always about power. Seeing the inherent responsibility is not part of it. The responsibility part is why so many women who have taken hare of their marriage are so unhappy. That doesn’t mean they can see it for what it is.
A friend of mine showed me this article and I must say I am baffled by some of these comments. There is nothing wrong with being equals, why does the man have to be in control? I am married and my husband and I make decisions together the final decision is ours together because it is OUR life not his. He in no way expects me to obey him he knows he can not tell me what to do that I will do what I damn well please and as for our daughter she is growing up in a home where she sees it’s ok to be a strong independent woman and that it’s not ok to be controlled by a man.
P.S our daughter listens (not obeys because she is her own person and I don’t control her I guide her) to me more then her dad because I am the one with her all the time and taking care of her
I must say I am baffled by some of these comments.
This is not unusual. I explain it in detail elsewhere in the blog if your interested.
why does the man have to be in control?
He doesn’t. I assert that this is how most men and women are happiest. It is how I and my husband are happiest as well.
I am married and my husband and I make decisions together the final decision is ours together
What happens when you are both at a standstill. Where an understanding or compromise simply cannot be met?
because it is OUR life not his.
Likewise. Do you believe I am silent in all of this? That most of the wives who live as I do have no opinion or voice?
he knows he can not tell me what to do that I will do what I damn well please
And presumably he does as he damn well pleases, as well?
as for our daughter she is growing up in a home where she sees it’s ok to be a strong independent woman and that it’s not ok to be controlled by a man.
Controlled? As in forced? I’ve spoken with many women who’ve chosen to live as I described here. How do you picture these husbands?
our daughter listens (not obeys because she is her own person and I don’t control her I guide her) to me more then her dad because I am the one with her all the time and taking care of her
I don’t understand your point here and I’m not sure how to respond to this. It’s nice that you care for her. I spend most of the time and care for mine as well.
You say there is nothing wrong with being equals and I say there is nothing wrong with my husband being the leader of our home. I’ve relinquished my attitude of I’ll do as I damn well please and my whole family is happier and more content since I’ve done so. This is OUR life as well and my husband does a fine job of caring for us all even when the responsibility of doing so is enormous. And I help him in this role. It’s wonderful.
I get that the way your marriage is you have a voice and you are not forced to live the way you do. I just don’t understand why the man has to be the leader and have the final say. Why can’t y’all both be leaders? To answer your question if at any point my husband and I can’t come to an agreement he tells me to make the decision but usually we can come to an agreement together. Yes he does as he pleases, we both do because we trust each other to make good decisions and we always make decisions with each other in mind. I’m not saying your husband and your self don’t trust each other I’m just saying that’s why we do as we please. Maybe it’s because I’m young that I don’t want to feel controlled. Maybe I just don’t fully understand the whole concept of it, but if that works for some people then good for them it’s their life and their marriage.
Why can’t y’all both be leaders?
There can never be two leaders. Eventually, they will butt heads and in a marriage it won’t be pretty. The common parlance at RPW and in many blogs in the “manosphere” is the Captain/First mate dynamic. Or president/vice president. What ever works for you. My husband is the head of the family and I am his second in command. I make plenty of decisions at the things I am strongest at in our family as does he. My husband happens to be the best at making the decisions for our family. He is much better at seeing the big picture where I tend to see how it will affect our family and only our family. He pulls me out of that so I can see other considerations. Therefore, he is best equipped for the job.
Maybe it’s because I’m young that I don’t want to feel controlled
I see this a lot, that women don’t like what I have to say because they don’t want to feel controlled. I wouldn’t like that feeling either. In my marriage I don’t feel controlled and my husband does not try to control me. Rather, I control myself. There are things that he asks me to do and asks me not to do. I understand why and I trust his reasons explicitly. So, I control myself. There is no domineering or fear involved. There is no holding down or holding back. There is acceptance and there is peace.
Maybe I just don’t fully understand the whole concept of it
I expect so as well. I didn’t at first either. Submission is equated with fear and domineering today but that is usually not the case. Please, ask anything you’d like. I’d be happy to explain more.
This is an area where there has been significant struggle for us (my husband and myself). I used to follow a lot of these blogs, and finally stopped, because I was met at every path with problems.
I homeschool our children because my husband tells me I have to. He was traditionally (brick/mortar building) schooled, I was homeschooled. He says homeschooling is the only way to go; being homeschooled myself and having had a “mixed” experience, I disagree. We don’t discuss it anymore because it gets us nowhere. I homeschool and I think he knows I disagree with him, but it just isn’t talked about.
I have had difficulties with discipline. I will tell him about them. He will then assign a discipline to that child that ultimately ends up being a punishment for me as well because I have to see to it that it gets done. After several experiences like this, two hours at a time devoted to an essay (with a child who was barely able to write, I might add) on why such and such behavior was wrong, I stopped telling him about any problems. At one point I ventured to do so again, and he started telling me he’d take care of it. I asked him to please not do that, and tried to tell him what happened the last time; I was informed in no uncertain terms that I was disrespectful of his methods and decisions. I don’t discuss it with him anymore.
I think about eleven years ago I had fifty dollars cash in my pocket. I went to Wal-Mart and bought a large case of disposable diapers, a pair of shoes for myself to replace a pair that had holes, and a jacket for our toddler because it was November and he didn’t have one. Not much of the fifty remained. He told me that I was really quite the spendthrift and that money sure burned a hole in my pocket. I was so offended by this (he saw the receipt) that I don’t buy any shoes for myself. I tried to buy a pair several times, and each time I just felt myself boil with rage…..and I just left the store because I couldn’t go through actually making a decision and buying a pair of shoes. He’s asked me a couple times why in the world don’t I get some shoes, because the pair I have now has holes. I don’t answer, I just get up and leave when he asks that question.
I have cut off all ties with my parents because of the way they raised me. I hated my Mom and Dad; still struggle with it because they were both quite the belt-wielders. I got it a couple times when I deserved it, but 90% of the time it was undeserved. I cut off ties with my older siblings because they teased me a couple of times, and I was furious that they teased me. I don’t even call them for Christmas, unless my husband tells me to call my siblings and parents, and then I do it, but only because my husband told me to do it. Those phone calls are the longest ten-minute sessions of my life, just sitting there on the phone with awkward silences and hemming and hawing until the ten minutes are up.
Thirteen years ago we were married; at one point during some spiritual reading (and after eight months of upchucking, a premature infant and subsequently absolutely no milk to feed the poor child with) Husband started talking about how married love was the lowest form of love. I felt like I was a creep, having just given birth to his child, did he think I had somehow tainted him? I felt horrible, made the mistake of saying so, and then had to apologize to him….after he had insulted me. This has colored our entire intimate relationship ever since, a relationship which has now dwindled to nothing.
I’m old, bitter, angry and sad. I stay out of his way because that’s what he seems to want. I have teenagers down to preschoolers, and I am seriously considering hiring some tutors for them at the very least, since I’m homeschooling alone. I have a feeling that if I try to discuss anything with him, he’ll deny me everything I need, and then I’ll get angrier trying to teach the kids things I can’t do right now, what with a preschooler who can’t read yet and needing more of my time. If I get any angrier, I am concerned I could snap.
Most folks if they hear this, the usual response has been a scolding (for me). I usually get the third degree. We went for counseling once, and once only. During the entire time, I got to sit there with my tail between my legs getting scolded. When we came home, my husband was pretty happy with himself and decided to lecture me. I sat through it and kept my mouth shut, but I was furious inside. A lot of times I feel like I might snap.
My kids are starting to treat me like dirt. I used to love being a Mom, but now I hate it.
We don’t discuss any of these things, I keep my mouth shut, he does the talking, I either respond to him or stay quiet if I know I’m about to explode.
I’m posting this anonymously because I wish I wasn’t real, but I am. You may not think so. But I am real and I am angry and I don’t trust anybody anymore.
Thanks for your time.
Anonymous,
I apologize, but I just don’t really know what to tell you any more. You situation is foreign to me. You are stuck, and to a certain point, I can sympathize. But you cannot change your husband. The only person you have the power to change in this world is yourself. The only person I can write to in this space regarding this, is you. You are holding onto hurts from 11 years ago over shoes. Even when he tells you to go out and buy news ones, you hold onto that hurt and, maybe not overtly, but at least covertly, hold it over his head.
You say you are old, bitter, angry and sad. It sounds like you have reason to be. But regardless of what is going on, you do not have to stay that way. Only, you are the only person who can pull yourself out of it. You cannot depend on anyone else, but yourself because it is yourself and your feelings that need to change. Even if your husband does need to change, what can you do to effect him? Nothing short of finding things that will make yourself happy, and even then, he may not change.
Pray. Pray for a change of heart in yourself and in your husband and seek that which makes you happy. Even the smallest of things. Find joy in them and then hold onto that. People cannot take that away from you unless you allow them to. Hold onto that happiness that you can find and let it permeate other parts of your life. You might find that your children respond differently to you and maybe even your husband will as well.
Again, the only person you have the power to change is yourself. Start there.
It sounds like a cliche, but it’s really true. The beginning of my turnaround – as ponderous as an oil tanker making a U-turn – was understanding the truth, the simply-said, complexly-applied truth of it.
Please read “But he says he loves me” written by a clinical psychologist an describing the thought process of abusers and victims. I know you don’t think this applies to you. But if your “freely chosen submission” is an effect of careful training by your spouse or not, it may still provide an useful perspective which you may wish to consider.
Cristina,
Says and observable does are two very different things.