Stingray– back in February, you wrote this in response to a Rollo blog post. I was wondering if you still felt this way about opening up the topic of submission with a wife. The general context was a man asking if he should “teach” is wife about submission. Any more comments you have on this topic would be welcome, as many men are trying to get this topic started with their wives–it is all very awkward! Thanks for your thoughts.
You write: “one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him back rubs (I believe I am direct quoting another commenter with the bold).
Unless she is extremely religious and was raised that way; NO. You are making the familiar mistake in assuming men and women think the same way. We decidedly do NOT.
If you try to explain this idea of having to submit to most women they will simply look at you with disgust and begin the shaming language, “Oppressor!” Submission is synonymous with doormat today.
You can’t explain it to her. You have to make her feel it; inspire it from her (over a period of time you might be able to explain it to some women after you’ve demonstrated the behavior). Telling a woman she has to submit to an inferior man is like telling a man he has to have sex with a 400 pound woman.”
Women tend to understand situations and even terms in how they make us feel. This is why things like Dread game, submission and whatnot are usually so viscerally appalling to a lot of women. They read the word dread and they feel it first, then infer the meaning through what they feel. They are going to feel real and intense dread and then believe that this is what Rollo are any other writer is talking about inducing in his wife. Wherein reality, this real dread that the women are feeling is usually only talked about being used by men in extreme circumstances. Solipsism makes this differentiation difficult to suss out.
So, if you talk to your wife about submission, without first making her feel it in a positive manner, she is going to feel what she thinks of as submission first and then apply it to what you are saying. As most women think of the word submission as a man wanting a doormat, a slave, and to oppress her, this is what she will feel you want her to become. This is why I say you must make her feel it first. If you are going to make her feel it in a positive way, you have to become the superior man (another one of those words that is going to make her feel badly. Don’t use it). Once this state is firmly in place, then you might be able to broach this subject with her. A man knows his wife best and the decision of whether this is best and how to do it are yours. For those women who might do well hearing from other women, I highly suggest the Red Pill Women subreddit. For those religious women, I can’t recommend Elspeth highly enough, as well as the links from her commenters and her sidebar (and to humbly add, they may like it here as well). ((Edited to add: Personally, I do not recommend trying to openly teach about submission until she can feel what it is you mean by it, not what society has taught her to feel about it.))
For the men, keep learning. Rollo did a podcast over this past weekend that I thought was tremendous for men to learn from. It’s long and the interviewers were crass. Don’t let this deter you. Near the end he talks of becoming. Of no longer having to Game your wife, because it is fully internalized. It’s a matter of course. And it’s not in some kind of oppressive way. It is in this becoming whom he wants to be and has chosen to be that is the best place for him to be able to love and care for his family. This is something I very much agree with.
You asked if I still believe this and I very much do. I think a lot of men, even men who have learned or are learning the red pill, still fall into the very dangerous trap in thinking that men and women think the same. Even though, they have read and on some level understand this is not true, the extent to how very differently we think and process information is still not understood. When she feels it, only then will she be able to put some kind of words to it. Understand, that she may not want to. Also understand she may not need to. Lead her to where the family needs to go.
**FM, my apologies for this coming late.