I’ve been reading a lot lately from some comment forums that the whole point of feminism was to bring to women the gift of choice. Their choice to work or not, vote, get an education, own property, etc.
The Education Gap since 1880’s. I’m not sure when women weren’t allowed to go to school in the West? (H/T)
A lot of women have been writing how their choice has been to be a mom, and that is why they are anti-feminist. One of the first comments on these threads is usually something along the lines of, well congratulations on your dream. Feminists made it possible.
Women aren’t feeling like being a mom isn’t acceptable for nothing.
Every time I hear someone say that feminism is about validating every choice a woman makes I have to fight back vomit.
Do people really think that a stay at home mom is really on equal footing with a woman who works and takes care of herself? There’s no way those two things are the same. . . .
Having kids and getting married are considered life milestones. We have baby showers and wedding parties as if it’s a huge accomplishment and cause for celebration to be able to get knocked up or find someone to walk down the aisle with. These aren’t accomplishments, they are actually super easy tasks, literally anyone can do them. They are the most common thing, ever, in the history of the world. They are, by definition, average. And here’s the thing, why on earth are we settling for average?
If women can do anything, why are we still content with applauding them for doing nothing? . . .
Now, I actually agree with her about the part that it’s not a huge accomplishment to have kids. Most women can and it is what our bodies are made to do.
You will never have the time, energy, freedom or mobility to be exceptional if you have a husband and kids. . . .
It’s because women secretly like to talk about how hard managing a household is so they don’t have to explain their lack of real accomplishments . . .
Women will be equal with men when we stop demanding that it be considered equally important to do housework and real work. They are not equal. Doing laundry will never be as important as being a doctor or an engineer or building a business. This word play is holding us back.
Now, I’m not terribly interested in dissecting this article. It’s pretty obvious. Many feminist will come back and say, well this is just one women and most feminists just don’t feel this way. This is not what real feminism is about!
But some very well known old school feminists felt the same way.
A parasite sucking out the living strength of another organism…the [housewife’s] labor does not even tend toward the creation of anything durable…. [W]oman’s work within the home [is] not directly useful to society, produces nothing. [The housewife] is subordinate, secondary, parasitic. It is for their common welfare that the situation must be altered by prohibiting marriage as a ‘career’ for woman.” ~ Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex, 1949.
No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one.” – “Sex, Society, and the Female Dilemma,” Simone de Beauvoir Saturday Review, June 14, 1975.
[Housewives] are mindless and thing-hungry…not people. [Housework] is peculiarly suited to the capacities of feeble-minded girls. [It] arrests their development at an infantile level, short of personal identity with an inevitably weak core of self…. [Housewives] are in as much danger as the millions who walked to their own death in the concentration camps. [The] conditions which destroyed the human identity of so many prisoners were not the torture and brutality, but conditions similar to those which destroy the identity of the American housewife.” ~ Betty Friedan, The Feminine Mystique, 1963.
[Housewives] are dependent creatures who are still children…parasites.” ~ Gloria Steinem, “What It Would Be Like If Women Win,” Time, August 31, 1970
“Feminism was profoundly opposed to traditional conceptions of how families should be organized, [since] the very existence of full-time homemakers was incompatible with the women’s movement…. [I]f even 10 percent of American women remain full-time homemakers, this will reinforce traditional views of what women ought to do and encourage other women to become full-time homemakers at least while their children are very young…. If women disproportionately take time off from their careers to have children, or if they work less hard than men at their careers while their children are young, this will put them at a competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis men, particularly men whose wives do all the homemaking and child care…. This means that no matter how any individual feminist might feel about child care and housework, the movement as a whole had reasons to discourage full-time homemaking.” ~ Jane J. Mansbridge, Why We Lost the ERA, 1986.
“[The] housewife is a nobody, and [housework] is a dead-end job. It may actually have a deteriorating effect on her mind…rendering her incapable of prolonged concentration on any single task. [She] comes to seem dumb as well as dull. [B]eing a housewife makes women sick.” ~ Sociologist Jessie Bernard in The Future of Marriage, 1982.
There are more (and here. The first link does an excellent job of dissecting how feminism is not about choice).
Growing up, I always wanted to be a stay at home mom. My mother was for several years and I wanted to give this to my kids as well. I went to college because I was taught that I needed a degree to fall back on just in case my husband and I were to divorce. So, I did that and also came away with my MRS. But, I always knew I wanted to stay home. This desire has evolved as I’ve aged and it’s become a bit of a dream of mine to become that Matriarch one reads about. The strong woman who helps to guide those around her, who loves tremendously but firmly, who isn’t afraid but is at the same time, soft. Whose children go to her for comfort and wisdom and whose grandchildren run to her for hugs and cookies. Now, I have a very long way to go in achieving this dream and it’s one I plan on spending a lifetime reaching for.
Do I work at this because I think it’s the hardest job in the world? No, because it’s not. Do I do it because I think there is some kind of glory in it? No. I do it because it’s mine. I do it because it’s my dream and this is what I want. I want to give this to my kids, to my family, and to my husband. I used to worry what other people thought about this at times (though I’ve been lucky in that no one has ever said anything to me), but no more. This is my choice, my dream and I’m going to do it for me and mine.
**Does this mean I expect other woman to follow suit? No. My point here is that there are a lot of women who are afraid of this choice and who find themselves thinking there is something wrong with them for wanting it. Being a wife and mother can be an incredibly noble pursuit if you work at it. If it’s what you want, then make it yours.
On the Rock 
(making a better attempt at discussion here Ms. Stingray. Good Morning)
Agree! Definitions/words get in the way of the general message and Yes, I agree “choice” is what must be defined and remains pivotal in empowering women to take a position on any issue of importance.
The quotes here date back to ’86 or earlier including the very influential and often quoted Simone de Beouvoir. I’m wondering if you have read any of Elisabeth Badinter’s pieces, specifically her most current book? She addresses historical feminist positions in a modern world. I’d be interested in your take on her definitions of choice, specifically whether choice exists at all, within either the current feminist construct OR in the emerging traditionalist movement?
Also, do you think that the current rise against the historical feminist movement is sprouting from a variety of organized religions or more from secular roots?
Here’s a link to an article which includes references to her work. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/07/25/against-nature
I’ll be unavailable on line today and regret missing the opportunity to converse via comments but will revisit this evening. Have a great day. -Ret
I have always felt the choice to be a wife and mom is just as noble and respectable as any other pursuit in life. It may not be my destiny or the fate of many women, but the great thing about life is that we all have different desires and skills. We should stop trying to demonize the choice of others and step back to celebrate that fact that we even have a choice.
Hello Reticent,
I briefly took a look at that article and also this article from Slate about Elisabeth Badinter. I have not read her books myself, but from what I can gather (I’m not well, so bear with me here), her problem is largely with mothers attempting to be “perfect” and that this drive to be perfect is enslaving mothers.
A couple of things. You asked me what I thought of her definition of choice. I don’t play that game. The definition of choice is a clear one:
She seems to be largely saying that mothers don’t have this choice. That it’s an all or nothing game. Go full in with La Leche or not. I would wager that she doesn’t like the whole mom’s doing the organic food thing either. That it’s all or nothing. But those are not mother’s only two choices. We don’t have to let perfect be the enemy of good and one does not have to follow these movements to be a good mother.
That Slate article uses the word enslavement. I’m not sure if this is the articles choice of words or not, but enslavement to whom? This word implies NO choice. This is simply not the case.
Choice has already been well defined. I know full well that women feel pressured to make certain choices, by all kinds of movements. But ultimately, in the end, the choice is fully theirs. Feminists cry foul whenever women choose beyond their ideal and women are tired of it.
Do you think that the current rise against the historical feminist movement is sprouting from a variety of organized religions or more from secular roots?
I think it’s both. I think people are tired of being driven to do things that ultimately make them very unhappy and are trying to find ways to regain that happiness. Women are tired of the dichotomy of being equal but victims. It doesn’t make sense that we should be treated equally with chivalry. Or that we should be treated equal before the law and then given special privileges. Feminists have pushed so hard and so far that this dichotomy is becoming more and more apparent and if we are to be truly strong, then this makes no sense. Feminists are ultimately the true mysogynists in that they encourage victimhood and women are tired of it.
Stingray, I hope you feel better soon. I will try to be brief. Thank you for a thoughtful response which I will digest and return to. I’m surprised you are not familiar with Elis.Bandinter but no worries, I have reading homework from your responses as well!
At some point, I’d like to know if any of the words/terms I used in my comment are considered buzzwords or words you might look as indicators of a lack of knowledge or bias? I’d be happy to share a list of similar from my perspective if you seek it. And What is the formal name of the movement you support and have chosen? I am only assigning Traditional as the name because that is my take. If not, then what term do you prefer?
Finally, given your response that the movement is rooted in both secular or non-secular, as in “women are tired of the dichotomy of being equal but victims, etc… ” I’m curious if looking back into the origins, the actual movement itself is documented as originating primarily with male or female dissatisfaction with the Feminist movement?
No need to respond tonight. Get some rest if you can. -Ret
Reticent,
Thank you.
Regarding the words or terms being buzzwords, I don’t offend easily so don’t worry about it too much. My style is more to write someone off whom I believe isn’t here to learn. If I believe you to be sincere, you won’t be written off. No offense to you, but I do not seek your list. I am going to offend some people. It’s inevitable. I don’t ask people to like it or even read here. I expect that people who disagree will not read, stay silent, or comment. I’m not going to change my style for anyone. It’s what works for me. My style is fairly blunt. To some it comes across maybe angry or defensive. I’m neither. This is just how I write.
I’m not really sure there is a formal name and I don’t know that I consider myself part of any movement really. I started out in the manosphere and learned a lot and have become a better wife and mother because of what I’ve learned. I’m happier and more content than I’ve ever been. I wanted to share what I’ve learned with others that might be seeking the same thing. Anti-feminist or Traditional would probably both be accurate.
Hmmmm, where I started reading about this it began with men. Though I have since discovered that many women have felt this way, largely religious, for many, many years. The internet gave them a much wider voice.
Bravo, Sting.
My wife is no dummy. Bachelors in music Ed. Stay home mom ever since we had two, then three, kids. Does some part time work for fun, and is now enrolled in a nursing program, again part time. She’ll probably stay part time, until all the kids are out of high school. And even then, we we will only rely one income for bills, as we always have.
Whatever. I defy anyone to say to her face, this isn’t *work* or worthwhile. As she is prone to say “you’ll get my size 6 printed on your ass”.
Nurturing and raising the next generation of humanity isn’t worthwhile. Only an Neanderthal could possibly disagree.
Most of the women the feminists praise so much are nothing but f**k-toys to men like me. That is all they are good for – sure they work, but that’s so that I don’t have to put out any money for them so I can have more than one that I see at any given time. Sure they may have a boy-friend, and that’s fine – I only want them for one thing and afterwards I’m done. At least a while, since variety is the spice of life. They can turn to their BF for companionship – I only want them for a couple of hours ever couple of weeks anyway. Best that they work to occupy their time when I don’t want them.
And I actually tend to respect women who are married with children and honor their vows – the ones that don’t are just married f**k-toys, no different from their non-married counter-parts. But hey – I’m a modern man – I don’t want a wife – they cost too much anyway… At some point I’ll retire to another country and have a couple of women who see to my needs – no reason to marry them, they will give what I need and that’s all that matters.
Feminism has turned all women into nothing but f**k-toys in my book. What’s not to like?
Martel,
Being a cave woman is wonderful!
Just Saying,
I don’t think many woman fully comprehend what you have said there and the ramifications of it. My grandmother is very fond of saying, “why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?”
The Amy Glass article (“Amy Glass” being a pseudonym for Chrissy Stockton, who is basically a troll), although her article does, unhappily, reflect the attitudes of many people about SAHMs. SAHMs, in my view, do far more nobler work than any career troll, entitled feminists who like to remind us that the “DON’T NEED A MAN!!!”* who fill the void in their empty lives with retail therapy, and unsuspecting cats. How is that ‘better’ than raising children and filling their lives and a home with love?
À bientôt,
Mistral
*Until, that is, things get the teensiest bit difficult.
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Raising children in an aggressively anti-natal society is a huge deal.
“Raising children in an aggressively anti-natal society is a huge deal.”
This needs repeating. Like a million times.
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