Stingray– back in February, you wrote this in response to a Rollo blog post. I was wondering if you still felt this way about opening up the topic of submission with a wife. The general context was a man asking if he should “teach” is wife about submission. Any more comments you have on this topic would be welcome, as many men are trying to get this topic started with their wives–it is all very awkward! Thanks for your thoughts.
You write: “one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him back rubs (I believe I am direct quoting another commenter with the bold).
Unless she is extremely religious and was raised that way; NO. You are making the familiar mistake in assuming men and women think the same way. We decidedly do NOT.
If you try to explain this idea of having to submit to most women they will simply look at you with disgust and begin the shaming language, “Oppressor!” Submission is synonymous with doormat today.
You can’t explain it to her. You have to make her feel it; inspire it from her (over a period of time you might be able to explain it to some women after you’ve demonstrated the behavior). Telling a woman she has to submit to an inferior man is like telling a man he has to have sex with a 400 pound woman.”
Women tend to understand situations and even terms in how they make us feel. This is why things like Dread game, submission and whatnot are usually so viscerally appalling to a lot of women. They read the word dread and they feel it first, then infer the meaning through what they feel. They are going to feel real and intense dread and then believe that this is what Rollo are any other writer is talking about inducing in his wife. Wherein reality, this real dread that the women are feeling is usually only talked about being used by men in extreme circumstances. Solipsism makes this differentiation difficult to suss out.
So, if you talk to your wife about submission, without first making her feel it in a positive manner, she is going to feel what she thinks of as submission first and then apply it to what you are saying. As most women think of the word submission as a man wanting a doormat, a slave, and to oppress her, this is what she will feel you want her to become. This is why I say you must make her feel it first. If you are going to make her feel it in a positive way, you have to become the superior man (another one of those words that is going to make her feel badly. Don’t use it). Once this state is firmly in place, then you might be able to broach this subject with her. A man knows his wife best and the decision of whether this is best and how to do it are yours. For those women who might do well hearing from other women, I highly suggest the Red Pill Women subreddit. For those religious women, I can’t recommend Elspeth highly enough, as well as the links from her commenters and her sidebar (and to humbly add, they may like it here as well). ((Edited to add: Personally, I do not recommend trying to openly teach about submission until she can feel what it is you mean by it, not what society has taught her to feel about it.))
For the men, keep learning. Rollo did a podcast over this past weekend that I thought was tremendous for men to learn from. It’s long and the interviewers were crass. Don’t let this deter you. Near the end he talks of becoming. Of no longer having to Game your wife, because it is fully internalized. It’s a matter of course. And it’s not in some kind of oppressive way. It is in this becoming whom he wants to be and has chosen to be that is the best place for him to be able to love and care for his family. This is something I very much agree with.
You asked if I still believe this and I very much do. I think a lot of men, even men who have learned or are learning the red pill, still fall into the very dangerous trap in thinking that men and women think the same. Even though, they have read and on some level understand this is not true, the extent to how very differently we think and process information is still not understood. When she feels it, only then will she be able to put some kind of words to it. Understand, that she may not want to. Also understand she may not need to. Lead her to where the family needs to go.
**FM, my apologies for this coming late.
The RPW subreddit has far, far too much open truth for the enormous majority of women who need the truths therein, and even the title will cause (the increasing number of) those who have been poisoned against the term to blanch. That’s not to say there aren’t many thousands who would engage it with interest and an honest will to improve their lot by improving themselves, but by the millions, it’s not a first step. Would that it were. Elspeth is a far gentler approach, specifically for the serious Christian, and I suspect she might cause many to dodge what has been termed Churchianity. I know a few who might think she’s a tad over the top in a couple areas but would connect to her honest spirituality.
That said, the advice above on how to bring a woman to the point of being able to accept such learning may well be all that’s necessary. Lads, become who you are. Your leadership is a reward of its own to you, but also to those around you – and it will help them become who they really are, themselves, which will in turn benefit you. It’s a strange thing, understanding the broad differences in which each sex approaches all this, that the core advice is the same: Develop yourself on your most mature path, and others, your Other, will respond by becoming more like you want them to be; and if they do not (an unlikely thing), you will be in a better position to force the issue or replace them, as circumstances dictate.
Peregrine John,
I suspect you are correct about the RPW subreddit. I meant to add that it would be wise to wait until she is ready, until she can feel what submission actually means to the husband before broaching this with her. Then, maybe, she would like the RPW reddit. We do not split hairs there but if she is willing to learn, the women there are more than willing to teach.
I do so appreciate the honorable mention, Stingray. Thank You!
@ Peregrine John:
I am a much lighter touch, because most women genuinely respond to a lighter touch much better, but in my years of blogging I’ve found that even the lightest touch isn’t going to get a woman who is turned in on herself and committed to having her way to see things my way (or even God’s way, which is my ultimate aim).
I’ve never visited RPW reddit, mainly because to be honest, the phrase “red pill woman” has begun to leave a bitter taste in my mouth. But I am glad to hear that there is hard hitting and unvarnished confrontation of the toxic femininity our culture preaches being confronted there.
become who you are.
Maritus read this and loved it. He said, it’s the key to everything. Those who read this and get it, don’t need it. Those who read it and don’t get it, do. If every man got it, we could all shut down our blogs right now.
It’s well deserved Elspeth. I don’t comment often at your place because often the scripture is above me and I have nothing to add. But I read all your posts.
I can understand why the term has left a bitter taste in your mouth but I have come to the conclusion that no matter what label is given or taken, it is going to be disliked by many. There are going to be women who never truly understand what we are about and will use the information to their own selfish ends. It will always be so. However, there are a lot of women there who sincerely want to learn so we try our best to teach them and try to keep the message from being watered down as long as possible.
Elspeth, it’s a bitter little pill and no mistake, but truth has always been that way when it replaces pretty lies. Alas. I salute your success in softening the blow, and hope to learn by it, myself. I’m uh… well, named for the Apostle of Love, but have a lot more in common with that crazy Essene.
Stingray, “Become who you are” is as close to a mantra as I’m likely to ever have, and I’m happy it resonates with Maritus. It’s the core of what I try to convey to the young minds I am in a position to influence. Though it sounds perilously close to “just be yourself,” it is, in action, almost the opposite. To become who you truly are, what people think of as what you’re meant to be, is the great goal of a human life, and all the other good we do comes from it.
I realize I’m preaching to the choir, here. It reminds me, though, that I have plans for yet another blog, one based on joyful spirituality, powerful, positive theology, and the point of view of a mystic with his head on straight. Rather a contrast to my other efforts, but it’s supposed to be. While I’m on the subject, many thanks to you – and Martel and Elspeth, actually – for watering that seed with good thoughts that run alongside my upcoming subjects.
(Er… that’s, what people usually describe as “what you’re meant to be”. A bit vague in there as to what I meant, which is that folks usually think of it as something inherently foreign but desirable as a goal or fated, rather than an ideal essentially built in.)
Stingray, thank you. I am benefiting from this greatly already.
Pere-j: talk about where you find resources for this kind of leadership. Is it the RP stuff or is it elsewhere?
Stingray, if you don’t mind me asking. Is your take on the RP ideas religious at all, or not?
(BTW, combing through your older posts is a wonderful process of discovery. Thanks for them.)
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Oh, so, well. Combing through those old posts I see a Latin Mass affinity not too far off from my own. Got it. Now, I am guessing you agree that a RP/Catholic synthesis is something in the making at present. The Catholic mainstream still appears awfully egalitarian. Tentative steps are being made, I notice, though.
FM,
Yes. We are Traditional Catholics and I do agree that there is a RP/Catholic synthesis depending on how the man chooses to lead and the man he is. I also agree that Catholic mainstream is pretty egalitarian and appears to be moving even more in that direction. I read a headline at Drudge recently that said the Pope is set to take a look at Catholic divorce, annulment, receiving the sacrament and other Catholic marriage stances to basically, get with the times. I cringed and will pray for the Church.
I am very glad that I was able to help and that you like my older posts. That means a whole lot. Thank you.
I meant to imply that there needs to be some sort of theological “synthesis” btw the RP and Catholic theology of marriage. I don’t see it out there yet. I see some individual Catholics (yourself included) trying to get the picture together, but it is not yet in focus. Of course, a lot of the RP/Manosphere is materialism and rationalism, not to mention the immorality. Yet, we have to admit that we have learned some things, at least in our cultural moment, from some sinful men. That kind of admission Catholicism can easily make, for we are the original “wheat from the chaff” separators. Think pagan Greece and Rome.
How did you get involved in the Manosphere in the first place?
FM,
I think a lot of us are still in the process of trying to figure it out. To put it to words. Scripture is not my strong point and it causes me to struggle in what you are describing. I fully admit that the manosphere has taught me a whole lot. It helped lead me deeper into my faith by being to accept and highly regard my place as wife. I couldn’t have done that without learning what I have read in the ‘Sphere.
I got involved in the Manosphere when my Dad sent us an article written by Vox Day at Vox Popoli a few years back. It was about women and voting and it freaked me right out. But I couldn’t stop thinking about it and the cognitive dissonance it made me feel. So I stuck around and eventually gathered the courage to start asking questions there and looking at some of the Game sites he would talk about.
Even though, they have read and on some level understand this is not true, the extent to how very differently we think and process information is still not understood. When she feels it, only then will she be able to put some kind of words to it. Understand, that she may not want to. Also understand she may not need to. Lead her to where the family needs to go.
This is a really good point. The best marriage advice for men I’ve seen. Actually, I would not believe it to be true except through long and painful experience. Highly intelligent women are often a danger to themselves and others.
The way I try to understand it: no woman would have children except by instinct; using logic, she would just say no. Too tough, too risky. Therefore, nature overrides logical decision making from her thought options. All women whom lack this feature have gone extinct; they didn’t have enough children to compete.
FM: There are a variety of good sources. The Androsphere is littered with them, as you suspected, and peripheral topics (like The Art of Manliness) cover the topic reasonably well pretty regularly. There are offline places ranging from the Boy Scouts to Officer Training Schools which explicitly teach leadership. Heck, even The Dog Whisperer’s advice is mostly about basic leadership which applies to humans, dogs, ravens, and any number of other critters. What’s funny is how and in what ways the complexity plays out: the principles are simple; the applications can be complex; undoing the societal brainwashing is complicated.
For what it’s worth, you should know this about “the red pill”: It means seeing the truth. That’s not my take on it, an application, or anything else, it’s the original and essential meaning of the phrase, the metaphor from which the rest descends. Any other way of describing it, applying it, or (commonly) slandering it is something to be avoided. Foolishness and frustration and lack of understanding lie that way. There is no disagreement between true religion and truth, or one or the other are misrepresented. (See Galileo for details.) Reality is what it is, and no morality or immorality shall have any bearing on it; rather, the reverse. I can apply a hammer to build a house or break bones, but to say that hammers should be avoided due to psychopaths misusing them is clearly foolish. Likewise truths regarding human nature.
I would also add that a safe-looking lie is, in the end (and very likely before) much more dangerous than a dangerous-looking truth. It would seem that most of society believes the opposite.
PJ–All of that is very nice indeed. Funny, but I was thinking about the claims that people make about the RP and truth earlier today. I think you put it well, RP is just a metaphor for seeing the truth of intersexual relations. No more, no less. (RP deals with the truth; but not all truth is RP. Sometimes I think the evolutionary materialists and social determinists think that it is the whole of the truth, but that cannot be, since every once and a while one has to think about art or music :) ) RP threatens many people b/c of the conditioning; it appears unflattering to (some or most) women. So be it. We do have women like Stingray and Sunshine Mary who get it. I think that is reassuring and proper. Just so we don’t start thinking of women as lower life forms, or unworthy of the love God commands us to give them. For that matter, one day I am going to be drooling down my hospital gown and soiling my adult diaper in the nursing home, and I will need some help. I hope it is a woman in attendance. Would I have anything to lose if I tried to Pick Her Up? :)
@Stingray “I got involved in the Manosphere when my Dad sent us an article written by Vox Day at Vox Popoli a few years back.”
Now that journey must have been very difficult and upsetting at times. You must have felt isolated from the herd, perhaps?
Eh, maybe. Intersexual relations are where the main cluster of pretty lies coalesce, for reasons fairly clear to those who’ve become aware of them, but the entire political-social-sexual network of human interaction is the “Matrix” the RP metaphor speaks of exiting. It’s all of a piece, and trying to piece it out tends to cause all kinds of trouble. The interlocking nature of it requires buying or rejecting the whole thing, remembering of course that the strongest lies have truth in them.
PJ–You could call that interlocking matrix by its proper name–Liberalism. The antidote to liberalism is truth, of course. Now since truth spreads over every human phenomenon, and even penetrates things that are not merely of this world, we wouldn’t want to say that RP *just is* the repository of all truth. In that case we would, perhaps unwittingly, turn it into an ideology–a false transcendence. Can RP talk about Resurrection, or the nature of the good, or the nature of God. No, not directly. It has its limits: intersexual relations. All well and good. I am just saying that it is not the whole cloth of truth.
Are you a Christian, or at least a theist of some variety?
Yes.
I’d agree with you that the disease is Liberalism, and that it plays out in the socio-politi-sexual realm. To remind: the pill is not Truth itself, but the metaphorical taking of it is a choice to wake up to objective reality, or more accurately, to reject the facade that keeps reality at bay. Though Nature strongly suggests the nature of God, and a closer understanding of God will explain both what the good is, and how the natural is meant to function, it is not truth entire. Nonetheless, without a clear view of reality, attempts to achieve godliness always go askew. (See also Dalrock’s commentary, and Stingray’s, on how modern religion has been subverted by the pretty lies we call the Matrix.)
Now that journey must have been very difficult and upsetting at times. You must have felt isolated from the herd, perhaps?
It was difficult and upsetting mostly because I came to realize so many of the mistakes I made with my husband and with men I had dated before him. Ways I had treated boys in the past and why I had done that. The journey for women here is a different one but difficult as well. As far as being isolated from the herd, yes and no. I am quite introverted so, while I definitely feel the pull of the herd, in some ways it is easier for me to deflect that pull. I have never been one to have women friends in number and am quite content with the companionship of my family. In that sense, this journey has been very good for me because my family has become my herd.
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