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An interesting conversation has started at Rollo Tomassi’s The Rational Male and it got me thinking about women in the future. All over the manosphere one sees the lament of the disappearing feminine woman. Rollo had this to say:
[M]y fear is that the prevalent, feminized model of the SMP, combined with increasing obesity rates and fat acceptance (another feminized attempt at redefining SMV) social conventions will marginalize ‘traditionally’ feminine women to such a degree that those traditional behaviors and mental schemas will be practically nonexistent in 2-3 more generations.
One sees some families making attempts at a return to traditional roles and I believe the number of these families is rapidly increasing (I observe this often at homeschool conventions I have attended, though obviously this is anecdotal). However, is this enough? Can feminism adjust women’s (and men’s) thinking so much that feminine women will become obsolete?
I can see this playing out in two ways. The first is that, since feminine women tend to be the most sought after for marriage material, could other women see this and desire to become like this in an effort to emulate their success? This makes sense on face value, but most feminine women by their very nature are quiet and fairly unassuming. They may get attention from men, but it is not outright noisy attention. It is a quiet respect. Unfortunately, it is this noisy attention that most women crave and it is not until it is too late do the realize the value of the quiet respect that will last a lifetime for the feminine. When young, it is also very easy to dismiss the attention a feminine woman gets because the hamster like to describe these women as weak, doormats, and, the worst sin of all . . . submissive.
The second thing I see as a possibility is that in the never ending quest for attention and validation the feminine women, unable to compete will wither away. They may follow the ever beckoning herd to do all the things that tear away that femininity a bit at a time,
“Have a piece of cake, one piece (everyday?) won’t hurt you.”
“You need to cut your hair! You will look so cute!”
“Can’t your man take care of himself or does he need to be taken care of like a child?!”
“Do you eat?!”
You get the point and I know there are many, many more. So, what is the fate of the feminine woman? Will other feminine women and the men who love and desire them be able to prop them up or will they die away another victim of feminism. (And if this does happen, what will be the fate of the men who love them?)
*Note: This is all assuming things go on as they are. I tend to think that with the continued shrinking of our economy that women will be involved in far more traditional roles whether or not they wish to be.
You already see outright shaming of feminine women, just like you see sluts shaming virgin women. Because they feel intimidated. Men would help keep feminine women around, but the most vocal/supportive about it would be betas that those vocal, shaming women would tear into.
Anyways. I look at it as determined more by men and how well the men’s rights groups are able to vocalize what we want. If we roll over, femininity is doomed to be killed by women. If we speak up and beat them to it…. we have a chance.
I agree with Leapster. As much as it seems to just put more on men’s plates, if men are the relationship gatekeepers, its them and only them who can shut out masculine women and raise up feminine ones. Will they do it, or will they just fall to temptation and enjoy the plethora of p**** (can’t bring myself to type that:))
I know I learned from two specific older, feminine women who acted as role models for me, but these women are very rare. They also do not have short hair :) Almost every single woman around me does. Long is not only more feminine, but its also more youthful.
re Note: With the shrinking of our economy, I see the opposite. I see more and more competition between men and women for the remaining jobs. Women could certainly attempt to organize, but, to fulfill our roles best, we need to support the men who will make the changes. Encourage THEM to organize. Our job is just to flash them as they go into battle! :)
I agree with you regarding the economy, but I don’t see as much competition for the remaining jobs. I think jobs women traditionally hold in the highest numbers will be the first to become obsolete (HR jobs, psychologist, etc). Many of the women will be clamoring to find a man to support them and find themselves house wives fighting to help keep their man at work.
Career women do not think like that. If they lost their job, they would look for another job, not a husband to take care of them. Having a man take care of them is a foreign concept and almost like admitting defeat. I couldn’t make it on my own. This attitude can take a lot of time to change if it will ever change. And that is providing they even find a man who CAN support them and wants to.
I once had a man offer to pay off my house for me AND leave it in my name when I explained how important it is to me. I was overwhelmed by the generosity of his offer, but I found it very hard to believe/accept someone would do that for me. Now this doesn’t all have to do with feminism, it also has to do with ego.
It is the feminine role to accept what a man offers and appreciate that HE is the one who should be providing for you, but since women have infiltrated the work force, they are out there hustling like men and can’t appreciate what men do as much since they themselves are doing it too.
I can see that about career women, but I wonder how many actual career women are out there vs. women who are simply working at a job calling it a career? I don’t know.
I think that when businesses begin scaling back, it is the predominately female jobs that will go first and there simply won’t be any place for them to go. They will look, but if there is nothing to find then . . . . what’s next?
Maybe “careers” will become ten year experiements, like it was for my mother. She became an architect in the sixties, which was a bit of a coup, to say the least: the only female of her graduating class to even finish the program. She left full-time work after having children. She did small work throughout my youth and returned to a related part-time job after I finished college.
I would love to see what you are proposing in your second pragraph come to fruition. Maybe it will! I remember a story my great-aunt used to tell me about her mother (my great-grandmother). She was a chemistry teacher in our local school system (also president of the school board at one point) and she was let go during the Great Depression so that she could be replaced by a male. I didn’t quite understand at the time, but I do now.
Kate,
That pretty much what I did as well. I worked for five years in speech pathology, got pregnant and have been home since. Though I’ve known since I was little that I always wanted to be home with my kids (just as my mother did for my brother and me).
Those traditional families are coming more and more to fruition. I see it often. I just am not sure, that with even more and more people doing this, it will be enough.
You’re in an enviable position.
I try to remember how lucky I am every day.
I’ve been thinking about this more and I’ve a question. What incentive do manosphere men have to speak up? It seems so many have no desire to marry or even have a cohabitation and I have to say that I can’t blame them, at all. I’ve seen many men now say that the only reason to marry is to have kids. Is the desire to have children enough to inspire men to fight for feminine women?
The incentive is reclaiming what true manhood is and not this player mockery of it. What they think they want is not what they really need. And how can they know what is best when they’ve never experienced it?
Aristotle suggests that man is happiest when he has set high standards for himself. How can a man respect himself when he is cheating himself of the real rewards of this life? True manhood is being a respected leader of an actual cause, devotion to wife and children, and sense of duty towards others.
Maybe you don’t blame them because you haven’t been on the receiving end of it. I’ve been fooled and I’m still a fool. But I live in such a way as to keep my conscience as clean as I can. Here’s one of my favorite quotations attributed to Mother Teresa:
People are often unreasonable,
illogical and self-centered;
Forgive them anyway.
If you are kind,
people may accuse you of selfish ulterior motives;
Be kind anyway.
If you are successful,
you will win some false friends and true enemies;
Succeed anyway.
If you are honest and frank,
people may cheat you;
Be honest anyway.
What you spend years building,
someone could destroy overnight;
Build anyway.
If you find serenity and happiness,
they may be jealous;
Be happy anyway.
The good you do today,
people will often forget tomorrow;
Do good anyway.
Give the world the best you have,
and it may never be enough;
Give the world the best you’ve got anyway.
You see, in the final analysis,
it is between you and God;
It was never between you and them anyway.
And a few other of my favorite words, this time by Kipling:
If
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you;
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or, being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or, being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise;
If you can dream – and not make dreams your master;
If you can think – and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with triumph and disaster
And treat those two imposters just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with wornout tools;
If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;
If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with kings – nor lose the common touch;
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you;
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run –
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And – which is more – you’ll be a Man my son!
Men in the ‘Sphere have plenty of reasons to speak up, most of them are just afraid to. For very GOOD and rational reasons. Loss of job, friends, etc.
However, I think the two things men have going for them in speaking up and acting lie in two traits most men have. Creating a family and seeing what they view as Justice being done. Right now these two traits are actually under the control of feminist ideals (white knights and manginas). But as the truth becomes more apparent I think those will come out.
The things working against MRA’s is that men don’t play for ‘team man.’ If we see a hopeless AFC, we’ll let him be. Most will do what they can for those they think they can help, but we look out for us and ours first and foremost.
But, even the most distraught men in the MRA horror stories…. They still want a family and the most distressing part of their stories seem to be that they are torn away from the family they built.
Eh. Sting, I’m pretty sure I’ve seen a lot of numbers, both from MRA’s and the mainstream media, that the part of the population hit the hardest by the economy was men’s jobs sectors. Plus that when faced with a choice between letting go men or a woman, a lot of times its the man getting the chop.
From what I can tell, this is due to the rise of heroic imaging of the single woman/career girl and the simultaneous destruction of respect for a man providing for his family. Not that it isn’t there, but that it simply isn’t what our society revolves around any more in the labor force like in Kate’s description – which is what had been true about humanity for most of our evolution.
I do however think that the ‘typical female’ jobs will stagnate for a bit when the economy comes back. We know we need new positions outside of those women gravitate to.
Oh, I also forgot to say that a large part of my hope is found in how the knowledge of the MRM and men’s issues is seeping downward in age demographics. That I, at 26, know, care, and do my best to press these things online and offline is… Well, encouraging. And as more people my age do so, it will seep further down in age demographics.
The incentive is reclaiming what true manhood is and not this player mockery of it. What they think they want is not what they really need. And how can they know what is best when they’ve never experienced it?
Aristotle suggests that man is happiest when he has set high standards for himself. How can a man respect himself when he is cheating himself of the real rewards of this life? True manhood is being a respected leader of an actual cause, devotion to wife and children, and sense of duty towards others.
Maybe you don’t blame them because you haven’t been on the receiving end of it.
I agree with you. With all of it. I see (hope?) this “player mockery” is just the beginning and that it will lead these men through to the other side to Manhood. Sure, many will stay on the player end because they are content to stay there. I do, however, see many who realize they have stalled are seeing that something is missing. Many are seeking more. They are seeking to experience it and what’s more important, they are seeking to learn about it. I believe that so much of this stems from what our generation has been taught and what we our teachers failed to teach us.
You may be right that I don’t blame them because I have not experienced it. However, I do find it difficult to find fault with men who wish to protect themselves when the deck is so firmly stacked against them. The laws are against them, schools are against them, modern society, and even (mostly??) women. True manhood requires an abundance of masculinity to thrive. Our system has been culling masculinity for decades now. Until that is again taught and encouraged by both men and women, I find it difficult to be upset that many men have chosen to completely buck the current system.
Leap,
Not only is it seeping down in age but I see it, ever so slowly, becoming more mainstream.
My point is only that there are casualties in this movement as men reclaim their rights, not that they shouldn’t have them. Rights are rights. They belong to them, but in taking them back (the only way to truly own them as opposed to woman “giving” them back or the government forcing women out) they, and others, must learn hard lessons that, as you say teachers failed to teach us. Remember though, teachers can only teach what they know and some do not have the experience to truly teach, in addition to the fact that if you want to keep your pulpit and makes changes from the inside out, there are certain boundaries of which you need to be cognizant.
By the way, enjoying the conversation. Hope I don’t sound TOO argumentative :)
Not at all Kate. I know you and I are on the same page. I stated that about the teachers and that it has been going on for decades exactly for the reasons you state. Because even teachers are not being taught what they should teach. It goes back at least 100 years in our education system. I have a post in the works regarding just this and I was smiling as I read you comment for that very reason.
I do realize there are casualties and I do not forget them. I just tend not to talk about them online as there will always be casualties when things need to change. There were casualties when we went from a masculine society to a feminine and there will be casualties in making the switch back. There are so many casualties in between from broken families as things are today. Please do not think I am disregarding women who work very hard for men and still are not finding what they want. I pray for them and the men in the same boat. Only, if we focus too much on the casualties that are inevitable in bringing back masculinity, I fear that the change will not happen. I do not wish to throw them under the bus as a sacrifice, only to let their children enjoy a world of Men.
If that sounds too harsh, I am sorry. I can’t change it, only try to do my small part to make things better.
*I have read a bit of your background online and I wish you the very best Kate. Don’t stop looking.
Thanks, Stingray. I am touched. Will hold off till you write the post on education to get into that. In the meantime, I’m going to try to come out of the schock of seeing my five-year old holding hands with an older boy from her daycare at Picnic in the Park!!!!! She had him chasing her around the park, they strolled hand in hand to the water fountain, he took her to pet a puppy…the sweet little smiles of joy on both their faces…If only things could stay as simple as that :)
Hello,
A very interesting post! Personally I am a follower of Deuteronomy 22:5, which exhorts women not to wear men’s clothing. I consider skirts and dresses to be the most appropriate items of dress for women. Until recently, I’d felt odd in that I am often the only woman in the room wearing a skirt or a dress, but have you noticed all of a sudden how in-fashion skirts and dresses are? I just noticed it this spring. Everywhere I go now, it seems like women are much more femininely dressed. I wondered if it was that women are finally waking up to the fact that there is no joy to be found in trying to look and act like men.
Alas, if they are wearing skirts more often (I haven’t noticed this, but that doesn’t mean much) my guess would be that many, if not most, are doing it because their friends are wearing skirts more often. Though, it is at least, a start.